Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: No more need to pop the Block

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'd almost sooner run Nightblade than Dire Frenzy, because at least my opponent wouldn't be expecting me to have that extra 3 points of damage and might play into it early on before he starts healing himself back up.

at no point is a guy with 30 health worth of taunts and gaining 3 health a turn ever going to be afraid of a minion I drop onto the board, whether it has rush, or charge, or whether I used tracking to draw it
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I mean, you have Kill Commands and a hero power which deals two damage per turn

Face Hunter actually is favored against Control Warlock >_>
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LiquidOshawott posted...

I mean, you have Kill Commands and a hero power which deals two damage per turn

10 damage is really not that much. can't remember the last time I got an opponent to 10 health and drew both kill commands within the first 6 turns of the match before they started healing and taunting out of range.

hero power dealing 2 damage is inconsequential when they have access to so much healing (warlock, priest) and armor gain (druid)

face hunter worked when they had 5 + 5 + 3 + 3 burst plus the hero power to grind out games. the meta has changed. grinding out control classes once you run out of cards no longer works -- they just heal. you can't fight for the board -- they have too much removal. they have bigger minions. they cheat out their big minions to control the board starting as early as turn 4, 5, or 6. you can't ignore their minions and go face -- they have too many taunts.

reach is the only strategy that works anymore, and your reach has been reduced from 16 to 10.

LiquidOshawott posted...

Face Hunter actually is favored against Control Warlock >_>

I find that very hard to believe so I had to look it up

it's... not exactly true.

face hunter almost doesn't exist at high ranks, and they have a bad matchup against control warlock at high ranks. they have a good matchup against 'control warlock' if you count all ranks, but this is basically saying they can only beat warlock decks that are at rank 20 and don't actually have all of the cards and aren't actually playing control warlock.

was also mainly thinking of spiteful priest (which is surprisingly even with hunter), and any druid deck because spreading plague has always been and will always be nonsense (druid grinds hunter into dust)
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KokoroAkechi posted...

The question is really, if ulti could have won or been in a position to win without having more than 3 minions. Like how far ahead was he at this point?

This was more my point than "play around Mind Control Tech" by the way. Like if he can honestly say that he 100% had the game won if that mind control hadn't happened, you'd think he'd 100% win without the two 1/2s out too and could just hold em back as a backup plan.

Ulti really sounds to me a lot like a guy who over-commits all the time, then gets killed by "RNG" when it's really just him playing more cards than he needs to all the time and being more prone to getting wrecked by a single card than he normally would be as a result, since actual good players hold some answers to their opponent's cards back in case their opponent actually has a way to stop them.
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My friend also has what I call I Have Mana and I Must Spend It Syndrome.
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I was really bad about that for a while but I've grown out of it some.
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Its not hard to outplay spiteful priest. Like their deck doesnt even let them make any good plays to begin with. Its a good deck for players who need to learn to count to six
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It's ok if you're aggro and midrange because you need to pressure but you have to think about what your opponent can do to come back

Ulti also has the tendency to draw/tap/discover last a lot of the time, whenever I spec him he always does this or plays a tempo minion (Like Tempo Aldor as Control Paladin for instance)

(Also the real way to play aggro is to just pressure Control so that they are forced to use a board clear when they clearly don't want to. Secret Mage and Paladin are premier decks because Mage is full of burn, Paladin can build board after board thanks to Call to Arms/Stand against Darkness and both decks have a ton of refill thanks to Divine Favor/Aluneth)
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I'm 100% in the tap last camp, and I'm confident that I'll never break the habit at this point. On the other hand, I almost always play discover/draw cards first. Don't know why I can't do the same with tapping...
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I think they've been cutting down on burst in general for all the classes. What's the last good damage spell that could go face? UI kind of, but it feels like that can only go face so that it doesn't rot in your hand and you can get the rest. So besides that it's what, Jade Lighting? Firelands Portal? Explosive Runes is the closest, but even that isn't a traditional burn spell and has some counterplay. So that leaves Mage as the only burn class allowed, if only because they have a bunch of Classic/Basic burn and can cheese more with Glyph.

They've been trying to shove formerly bursty classes like Hunter and Rogue into this midrange grind strategy, but it feels like they're scared of making another Shamanstone class because they won't give them the tools to survive against aggro like Shaman had.
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Yeah. When you're ahead, you always have to ask yourself, "how do I lose?", and avoid that scenario if possible.

Opposite when you're behind. Ask yourself, "how do I win?" and play to your outs.

Camden posted...

I'm 100% in the tap last camp, and I'm confident that I'll never break the habit at this point. On the other hand, I almost always play discover/draw cards first. Don't know why I can't do the same with tapping...

I used to do it too. For me, it was an issue of taking action before my turn was 100% planned out. That's when I'd screw myself.

Sometimes you do know you're definitely playing a card or making an attack no matter what, but it pays to know your entire turn before you do anything, then reconsider the order.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SlickJazzySrirachaLeeroyJenkins

My favourite tapping moment. Should have tapped last!
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Zalae's reaction is hilarious in that clip. I remember that game and I'm pretty sure Forsen ended up tapping later and doing the same thing.
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There needs to be more ways to silence stuff I think. Seems like silence options are very limited. Most peoples options are what? Owl and Spellbreaker?

https://tinyurl.com/ydb87vef
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Yeah, I mean there's options like Hex and Polymorph too. But Hunter should really have more silence options

I'm surprised they haven't created minions that can slip by taunt yet. Knuckles I guess?

the idea of someone actually playing knuckles in a constructed deck is amazing

made a face hunter deck that literally uses arcane shot for reach and bullied some people at rank 24
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Oh yeah I know it doesn't see play. It's just the only minion I can think of that ignores taunt (kinda)

New card: 5 mana 2/6 Neutral legendary that summons a 1/1 copy of any minion you draw.

Finally a way to get Voidlords into play for free for Warlocks.

https://i.redd.it/n09uzdnsrqp01.png
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I actually think it's too slow to be really good, but I just wanted to keep the Warlock memes going.
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Deathrattle Rogue:

Dorian
Prep
Sprint

concede

A poorman's varian sounds okay to me!
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probably only would benefit control classes but it doesn't seem like it would generate enough value to be worth replacing an actually high power level card
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I play Knuckles on ladder all the time, he just happens to be fused together with some other beast when I do it.

Dollmaster looks like the perfect fun card that's not good enough to make any serious impact. My kind of card.
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ShatteredElysium posted...

There needs to be more ways to silence stuff I think. Seems like silence options are very limited. Most peoples options are what? Owl and Spellbreaker?

Oh, that's deliberate. At the first Standard rotation, silence was pretty ubiquitous, so they nerfed the two best silence cards (Owl and Keeper of the Grove) and stopped making as many. They said Silence creates unfun gameplay, so naturally, most of the few new silence effects after that went to Priest. Two years later that design philosophy still holds up. It would really suck if you couldn't get full value from your 6 mana 6/18 taunt.
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Wait...did he say instead of outplaying? Implying you can outplay someone?
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Right, most people don't worry about MCT because most of the time it absolutely is the best thing to do. Not playing around it is based on odds though, you're unlikely to be punished by it because of it's infrequency. Sometimes those odds are going to go against you though.

Sometimes the opponent is going to have the answer to your play, even if it was the right play. That's the whole point of playing against an opponent. Otherwise what happens if both players always make the right play.

I mean you might as well say you lost to RNG any time you lose because you randomly drew the wrong cards.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

ShatteredElysium posted...

Otherwise what happens if both players always make the right play.

..........................you would have a game based on skill level instead of RNG, which anyone with a brain should want.

But if both players always make the right play then how does skill decide it? At some point someone still wins regardless of them always making the right play.

The entire game would then just be based on draw luck.

I mean you might as well say you lost to RNG any time you lose because you randomly got matched against a more skilled opponent.

I mean regardless it's probable it was the wrong play anyway. We don't really know what the board state was either way, just have the biased account of one man who was deluded into thinking he'd clearly won-- I refuse to believe that you had a guaranteed win where the guaranteed win hinged on having a couple of totems or 1/2s in play. Or that there weren't other options that the dude could have had in his hand that would've solved you just as well. But it's convenient to blame something and the opponent using a card that has the word "random" on it gives you a nice scapegoat.
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Also that was a ridiculous Arena I just lost. Not in a bad way, just in a no way would have I thought that would happen

Had opposing warrior on the ropes and his next plays are:

Unidentified Shield for 15 Armor + Blood Razor
Primordial Drake
Primordial Drake
Primordial Drake
Bog Creeper

I got rewarded with a Dragoncaller Alana. Forgot that even existed.

Ulti, answer me these questions please:
Do you dislike RNG elements in games?
Do you dislike Hearthstone because of this?
Is it possible in your mind for a game to not be completely RNG or skill based? Can a game have some RNG and some skill? If not, why?
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Emeraldegg posted...

Do you dislike RNG elements in games?
Do you dislike Hearthstone because of this?
Is it possible in your mind for a game to not be completely RNG or skill based? Can a game have some RNG and some skill? If not, why?

-I almost universally hate random elements
-No
-Yes, no, and because random elements cannot be evenly distributed in a competitive environment they should be reduced and controlled as much as possible

https://clips.twitch.tv/RockyEsteemedDiamondDxCat

Hearthstone is basically that, and no one liked the random rule in FF8. Don't even lie and pretend you did.

Sorry, perhaps that last question should have been more clear. The second sentence was merely meant to be a rephrasing of the first question. What I meant was "Do you believe it is possible for a game to contain both skill and luck-based elements?"
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Your Evolve and my Evolve are almost never going to yield the same result.

If you're skilled enough it's possible.
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You're saying a random draw from my deck is going to yield the same result as a random draw from yours then?
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Hey Ulti have you played D+D
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Angry chicken tho

lol

UltimaterializerX posted...

Emeraldegg posted...

"Do you believe it is possible for a game to contain both skill and luck-based elements?"

Gotcha.

Yes, because even games like chess has a flip to determine who gets white. You have to separate games where there is accepted RNG for all players equally (card draw RNG in card games, for example) and what Hearthstone does. Your Evolve and my Evolve are almost never going to yield the same result.

Okay, but cards that yield random results are far from the only thing involved in a game of hearthstone. What about before the game even starts, the process of deckbuilding? What about situations that others have brought up, such as knowing when to press for board control and when to hold back to wait for a clear? Or doing things like getting the random element out of the way first with life tap/discover cards? Are these not things that require skill to navigate? These are conscious decisions that players make in order to swing the game in their favor, are they not? Is that not what skill is?

I understand where you're coming from that RNG can sometimes win and lose games, but the key word is SOMETIMES. That is not the entirety of hearthstone. While what you say is true about your arena run, that perhaps you did make the correct play and just got beat by RNG, that doesn't happen every time. If it did, then why did you speak of Kripp as deserving of the #1 player status earlier? You spoke as though the reason he is the #1 player is because he consistently makes the best plays. Is that not skill?

Also, something else I don't understand, is your viewpoint that draw RNG is fine but other effects are not. Can you explain to me what the fundamental difference is? I mean you mention the example about 2 evolves not yielding the same results, but the same thing goes for 2 players with exactly identical decks. The players will almost certainly not even draw the same opening hand, much less anything else. How is that any different from 2 of the same card yielding different results?
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UltimaterializerX posted...

You and I have the exact same odds of drawing a specific card each turn. If we have identical decks and I can't top deck Kill Command before you, oh well. That is acceptable. Our random odds are exactly the same.

What's NOT acceptable is my adapt not giving me lethal, and then yours gets you lethal. That isn't remotely the same RNG for both players.

Not trying to troll here, but I swear like half of your complaints come in the form of "I didn't draw the cards I needed/my best card was at the bottom of the deck".

By your current definitions, this is RNG that is okay, but, without going back to look, I can guarantee that you still ended those posts with the "skill level blah blah blah" tagline.

So Ulti, which is it? Are you lying about draw RNG being good now, or are you undermining half of the complaint posts you've made?
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