Board 8 > Politics Internment Topic 226

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/19/bidens-comments-about-segregationists-rich-are-deeply-problematic/?utm_term=.29c615cb9abb

The truth of the matter is, you all, you all know, you all know in your gut what has to be done. We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is its all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No ones standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change, he said.

NOTHING WILL FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE 2020

Still waiting for Trump to go with the nickname "Status Quo Joe". I feel like its right there for him.
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Well, if he's really going to use "Keep America Great" as his slogan, attacking Biden for wanting the status quo would be a bit contradictory.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/19/bidens-comments-about-segregationists-rich-are-deeply-problematic/?utm_term=.29c615cb9abb

The truth of the matter is, you all, you all know, you all know in your gut what has to be done. We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is its all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No ones standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change, he said.

NOTHING WILL FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE 2020

Still waiting for Trump to go with the nickname "Status Quo Joe". I feel like its right there for him.

Biden gave the eulogy at the funeral for his good friend Strom fuckin Thurmond. I am completely unsurprised by these comments.
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Wow at Inslee:

https://twitter.com/kellyweill/status/1141355651924406272?s=21
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the american voters elected Trump in 2016

that's such a bad pander attempt
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red sox 777 posted...

You're judging Trump's policies based on how they're viewed by Muffin and SephG, which is going to give you a very incomplete picture.

i'm not JUST judging trump's policies based on how they're viewed by muffin and sephy. i'm also judging them based on how they're viewed by, say, cyclo (someone i mostly agree with on politics) and he's saying they're abysmal.

seems to me like all the left-leaning people are saying trump is terrible and the "fuck you i got mine" people are praising him to high heavens. so you're basically saying literally everyone is wrong about trump and that only you are correctly interpret his policies. sorry, but i find that a bit hard to believe.

Also, I don't think either of them would object to helping the poor if they got other things they wanted (like helping the rich).

muffin would absolutely be against helping the poor if the help comes from the government in any way, shape or form. he'd just do his usual spiel: taking money from the rich is immoral, the "help" isn't actually help, it results in the poor being victims of the welfare trap, the only "good help" is voluntary charity, etc.
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Trump doesnt care about helping anyone other than himself

Like, hes basically a solipsist
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Wow at Inslee:

https://twitter.com/kellyweill/status/1141355651924406272?s=21

Hahaha did Beto only get one attempt at a photo and then they kicked him out or what happened there?
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Suprak the Stud posted...

LordoftheMorons posted...

Wow at Inslee:

https://twitter.com/kellyweill/status/1141355651924406272?s=21

Hahaha did Beto only get one attempt at a photo and then they kicked him out or what happened there?

I imagine it's a frame from a video.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

red sox 777 posted...

You're judging Trump's policies based on how they're viewed by Muffin and SephG, which is going to give you a very incomplete picture.

i'm not JUST judging trump's policies based on how they're viewed by muffin and sephy. i'm also judging them based on how they're viewed by, say, cyclo (someone i mostly agree with on politics) and he's saying they're abysmal.

seems to me like all the left-leaning people are saying trump is terrible and the "fuck you i got mine" people are praising him to high heavens. so you're basically saying literally everyone is wrong about trump and that only you are correctly interpret his policies. sorry, but i find that a bit hard to believe.

Also, I don't think either of them would object to helping the poor if they got other things they wanted (like helping the rich).

muffin would absolutely be against helping the poor if the help comes from the government in any way, shape or form. he'd just do his usual spiel: taking money from the rich is immoral, the "help" isn't actually help, it results in the poor being victims of the welfare trap, the only "good help" is voluntary charity, etc.

Let me remind you that I alone out of the people who regularly post in this topic predicted the 2016 election with anything close to accuracy (48 states, and wrong by less than 1% in the other 2). So I'll take my read on things of this nature over this topic's consensus anytime.

But that said, I think we are conflating intent with results. I did a poll a while back asking if people on this board were making more money now than they were when Trump first took office. The results were overwhelmingly positive. Based on that poll, IIRC the median Board 8 respondent is making something like 50% more than they were when Trump took office. Now, it's true that 2 years of additional experience will do a lot for you - but the economy has been undeniably strong. These results match up with the official stats showing the lowest unemployment since 1969 and increases in inflation-adjusted wages for the first time in 10 years.
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I think Muffin would support policies that help the poor to get well-paying jobs. That is to say, the elimination of policies that prevent the poor from obtaining well-paying jobs.
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red sox 777 posted...

Let me remind you that I alone out of the people who regularly post in this topic predicted the 2016 election with anything close to accuracy (48 states, and wrong by less than 1% in the other 2). So I'll take my read on things of this nature over this topic's consensus anytime.

I definitely dont remember this.
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saw Booker's response on Biden's segregationist compromise issue

I can't help notice that like literally every time I see Booker criticize someone he always pads in a bunch of disclaimers of how much he respects them, he'd do the same at some judiciary committee hearings to Republican colleagues and like calling I think Grassley a mentor to him before ripping in
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https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Let me remind you that I alone out of the people who regularly post in this topic predicted the 2016 election with anything close to accuracy (48 states, and wrong by less than 1% in the other 2). So I'll take my read on things of this nature over this topic's consensus anytime.

I definitely dont remember this.

I had Hillary winning MI and PA. Called all of the other 48 in charmander's prediction topic.
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People almost always have an upward income trajectory, and a poll on b8 of mostly middle to upper middle class white men about it shows very little. People having employment on its own, for the ethics of work itself, is not the goal of the president, the new jobs being created are low wage and most Americans are overworked, underpaid (paycheck to paycheck, cannot cover an unexpected expense) and stressed out. If we wanted to put people to work, we could. Bernie proposed a job guarantee, where any American willing to work could be guaranteed a living wage and a job provided by the government. Somehow it didn't get passed, because most people in power don't actually care about the ethics of work, or providing people with a living wage, they care about creating profit for the wealthy. It's like when George W Bush gave everyone a check for 700 dollars or whatever, people said 'look, he is helping out the little guy!' and it's an absurd argument. He does not care one little bit about helping out the little guy, and all of his policies are explicitly about the opposite. He gave the checks to temporarily boost economic activity, to create profit for the rich. Trying to keep poor people alive in big enough numbers and healthy enough to still provide employees is not a kindness. Massive levels of wealth are being transferred from the working class to the top 1% and have been for a very long time, and any policies that keep that trend in place are not helping workers in the long run. I agree that it is great that Trump happens to be such a narcissist that, reportedly, he doesn't want to go to war because he fears it would harm his re election propsects....but what if he gets re elected and doesn't have to worry about another election?

Nrrr posted...

People almost always have an upward income trajectory, and a poll on b8 of mostly middle to upper middle class white men about it shows very little. People having employment on its own, for the ethics of work itself, is not the goal of the president, the new jobs being created are low wage and most Americans are overworked, underpaid (paycheck to paycheck, cannot cover an unexpected expense) and stressed out. If we wanted to put people to work, we could. Bernie proposed a job guarantee, where any American willing to work could be guaranteed a living wage and a job provided by the government. Somehow it didn't get passed, because most people in power don't actually care about the ethics of work, or providing people with a living wage, they care about creating profit for the wealthy. It's like when George W Bush gave everyone a check for 700 dollars or whatever, people said 'look, he is helping out the little guy!' and it's an absurd argument. He does not care one little bit about helping out the little guy, and all of his policies are explicitly about the opposite. He gave the checks to temporarily boost economic activity, to create profit for the rich. Trying to keep poor people alive in big enough numbers and healthy enough to still provide employees is not a kindness. Massive levels of wealth are being transferred from the working class to the top 1% and have been for a very long time, and any policies that keep that trend in place are not helping workers in the long run. I agree that it is great that Trump happens to be such a narcissist that, reportedly, he doesn't want to go to war because he fears it would harm his re election propsects....but what if he gets re elected and doesn't have to worry about another election?

Trump will be worried about his legacy, or Ivanka's chances in 2024.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

which is still only a good thing (at least concerning Warren)
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Why would Trump worry about his legacy? When he dies, the world ceases to exist
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/1141425627683262465

I think this is the best take about this situation.

What I worry about with a Bernie presidency is he might feel he has to work with the Democratic Party to get things done. If they bargain him down to Obamacare 2.0 it will be awful for the poor and all the momentum will be lost. Trump knows better than to negotiate with the Democrats in good faith.

Also, without Trump, the Republican Party will probably stop supporting the working class. Republican advocacy for anything is vastly more effective than Democratic advocacy.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Why would Trump worry about his legacy? When he dies, the world ceases to exist

LordoftheMorons posted...

Why would Trump worry about his legacy? When he dies, the world ceases to exist

With a strong legacy, he can live forever.
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Read a news report about Trump's speech to open his 2020 campaign. The source is not reliable as the writer is obviously biased against Trump, but the quotations show nonetheless that Trump is focused and on-point. His message is that electing a Democrat is dangerous because they will do horrible things to the country. This is exactly the right message, and if the campaign can be focused on this issue, Trump will win.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/19/bidens-comments-about-segregationists-rich-are-deeply-problematic/?utm_term=.29c615cb9abb

The truth of the matter is, you all, you all know, you all know in your gut what has to be done. We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is its all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No ones standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change, he said.

NOTHING WILL FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE 2020

Still waiting for Trump to go with the nickname "Status Quo Joe". I feel like its right there for him.

In context he is saying that rich people will be fine if he raises their taxes:
https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1141444627247116294
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Suprak the Stud posted...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/19/bidens-comments-about-segregationists-rich-are-deeply-problematic/?utm_term=.29c615cb9abb

The truth of the matter is, you all, you all know, you all know in your gut what has to be done. We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is its all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No ones standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change, he said.

NOTHING WILL FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE 2020

Still waiting for Trump to go with the nickname "Status Quo Joe". I feel like its right there for him.

In context he is saying that rich people will be fine if he raises their taxes:
https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1141444627247116294

Oh dang, fair point! I read the full quote after you posted this and yeah that looks more in line with what he was saying. My bad.

Thanks for posting this!
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Sanders took the bait.

It essentially ensures that the Bernie or Busters ignore any endorsements he makes of whoever's running. This lets moderates push Biden through the primaries too, because progressives will be too busy fighting each other to notice hey Crazy Uncle Joe's in the lead.
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https://twitter.com/AntonioSlamsci/status/1141447950738046979

yes lets be fair and credit him with promising to do the bare minimum to pacify the unwashed hordes of poor people
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Dancedreamer posted...

Sanders took the bait.

It essentially ensures that the Bernie or Busters ignore any endorsements he makes of whoever's running. This lets moderates push Biden through the primaries too, because progressives will be too busy fighting each other to notice hey Crazy Uncle Joe's in the lead.

Oh god, not even the first debate and people are already blaming a Biden loss on Bernie.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/AntonioSlamsci/status/1141447950738046979

yes lets be fair and credit him with promising to do the bare minimum to pacify the unwashed hordes of poor people

In fairness, I do actually need to shower.

Dancedreamer posted...

Sanders took the bait.

It essentially ensures that the Bernie or Busters ignore any endorsements he makes of whoever's running. This lets moderates push Biden through the primaries too, because progressives will be too busy fighting each other to notice hey Crazy Uncle Joe's in the lead.

Are you referring to the tweet where Bernie just says, based on their own words, the third way group says anybody but Bernie? Because if that is too much of 'an attack' for the democratic primary, the entire field has done just as bad if not worse towards fellow Democrats.

Honest question since I haven't followed it a ton:

This "Bernie Revolution" people keep talking about... They talk about it as if it's a total upheaval of the current government/class system/etc., by force if necessary

Is Bernie actually pushing for that? Or are people kinda just running with it?
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

That's good though because the leading centrist candidate is Biden. Centrists will never go for Bernie.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Honest question since I haven't followed it a ton:

This "Bernie Revolution" people keep talking about... They talk about it as if it's a total upheaval of the current government/class system/etc., by force if necessary

Is Bernie actually pushing for that? Or are people kinda just running with it?

Certainly not by force. From what I understand, Bernie is calling for structural changes to our economic system, the goal of which would be to move a great portion of the means of production (capital) into the hands of workers. Sort of like how things were in the 50s and 60s, or how they are now in Scandinavia. If successful, it is much better than what Trump is offering, which is to borrow lots of money to throw temporary bribes at people to keep them afloat long enough to win their vote.

But Trump is offering a lot more than Hillary and the centrist Democrats offered the working class, which was essentially nothing.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

That's good though because the leading centrist candidate is Biden. Centrists will never go for Bernie.

Centrists would never go for Bernie? But I thought not supporting the eventual nominee no matter who was the worst thing you can do, and only Bernie or Busters would dare do it?
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

That's good though because the leading centrist candidate is Biden. Centrists will never go for Bernie.

Centrists would never go for Bernie? But I thought not supporting the eventual nominee no matter who was the worst thing you can do, and only Bernie or Busters would dare do it?

I think it's pretty clear that he meant centrists are never gonna vote Bernie in the primaries as long as there's an alternative, so going Warren over Biden is an improvement.
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StealThisSheen posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

That's good though because the leading centrist candidate is Biden. Centrists will never go for Bernie.

Centrists would never go for Bernie? But I thought not supporting the eventual nominee no matter who was the worst thing you can do, and only Bernie or Busters would dare do it?

I think it's pretty clear that he meant centrists are never gonna vote Bernie in the primaries as long as there's an alternative, so going Warren over Biden is an improvement.

That doesnt even make sense in the context of the discussion, as were referring to Centrists coming to terms with Warren as maybe the nomineenot voting for her in the Primary.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

That's good though because the leading centrist candidate is Biden. Centrists will never go for Bernie.

Centrists would never go for Bernie? But I thought not supporting the eventual nominee no matter who was the worst thing you can do, and only Bernie or Busters would dare do it?

The truth is that those centrists would be better off economically under Trump than under Bernie. They'll stay home and spend the next 4 years blaming everyone but themselves.
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Centrists being open to Warren and Warren being able to appeal to them very much matters with Centrists potentially actually voting for her in the primaries.
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Nrrr posted...

Are you referring to the tweet where Bernie just says, based on their own words, the third way group says anybody but Bernie? Because if that is too much of 'an attack' for the democratic primary, the entire field has done just as bad if not worse towards fellow Democrats.

It alienates Warren supporters (as Sanders supporters are want to do) and presents to his base that they shouldn't even think about supporting anyone else in the primary.

So then if it ultimately either comes down to Warren vs Biden, or Sanders vs Biden, in scenario 1 your Sanders supporters aren't going to jump ship for Warren the 'corporatist'. And in scenario 2 Warren supporters will jump ship to elsewhere because Sanders has alienated them. Then we get Joe Biden as a candidate over either of them, and both of them would be better than Biden. Because Biden is an actual corporatist who has very little progressive credentials. Then once again the centrists jump and dance as they get their preferred candidate and once again force us to vote for someone who won't enact change or ultimately get someone who will change things for the much worse (Donald J. Trump)
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

That's good though because the leading centrist candidate is Biden. Centrists will never go for Bernie.

Centrists would never go for Bernie? But I thought not supporting the eventual nominee no matter who was the worst thing you can do, and only Bernie or Busters would dare do it?

I think it's pretty clear that he meant centrists are never gonna vote Bernie in the primaries as long as there's an alternative, so going Warren over Biden is an improvement.

That doesnt even make sense in the context of the discussion, as were referring to Centrists coming to terms with Warren as maybe the nomineenot voting for her in the Primary.

How can Warren be an "alternative nominee" to Bernie if it's not including the process in question? You can't have an "alternative" once the nominee is selected.
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Dancedreamer posted...

Nrrr posted...

Are you referring to the tweet where Bernie just says, based on their own words, the third way group says anybody but Bernie? Because if that is too much of 'an attack' for the democratic primary, the entire field has done just as bad if not worse towards fellow Democrats.

It alienates Warren supporters (as Sanders supporters are want to do) and presents to his base that they shouldn't even think about supporting anyone else in the primary.

So then if it ultimately either comes down to Warren vs Biden, or Sanders vs Biden, in scenario 1 your Sanders supporters aren't going to jump ship for Warren the 'corporatist'. And in scenario 2 Warren supporters will jump ship to elsewhere because Sanders has alienated them. Then we get Joe Biden as a candidate over either of them, and both of them would be better than Biden. Because Biden is an actual corporatist who has very little progressive credentials. Then once again the centrists jump and dance as they get their preferred candidate and once again force us to vote for someone who won't enact change or ultimately get someone who will change things for the much worse (Donald J. Trump)

I know of no one who likes Bernie and doesnt think Warren is pretty good on the left. This is such an extreme minority.
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StealThisSheen posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/politico/status/1141281982418247682?s=21

Centrists are coming around to Elizabeth Warren as an alternative to Bernie Sanders

Oh look, more of what I was worried about.

That's good though because the leading centrist candidate is Biden. Centrists will never go for Bernie.

Centrists would never go for Bernie? But I thought not supporting the eventual nominee no matter who was the worst thing you can do, and only Bernie or Busters would dare do it?

I think it's pretty clear that he meant centrists are never gonna vote Bernie in the primaries as long as there's an alternative, so going Warren over Biden is an improvement.

That doesnt even make sense in the context of the discussion, as were referring to Centrists coming to terms with Warren as maybe the nomineenot voting for her in the Primary.

How can Warren be an "alternative nominee" to Bernie if it's not including the process in question? You can't have an "alternative" once the nominee is selected.

You forgetting the article I shared and made a big deal about where Centrists were saying theyd vote Trump over the Bernie wing?

Or how in 2013 the third way called Warren unacceptable, which implies theyd have another option?

Literally the article Bernie took the bait on says their first choice is Biden and others, so unless it comes down to only Bernie vs Warren, theyre not voting Warren.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Literally the article Bernie took the bait on says their first choice is Biden and others, so unless it comes down to only Bernie vs Warren, theyre not voting Warren.

Right, and the article he was responding to is saying they're now warming up to Warren if it came down to Warren vs. Bernie.

And so I take it as him saying it could be Bernie vs. anybody on that side right now and they're picking the other person.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I know of no one who likes Bernie and doesnt think Warren is pretty good on the left. This is such an extreme minority.

Yeah, I dont know how many times I have to say shes my number two, just that I notice the extremely obvious framing of her to intentionally thwart Bernie.

This isnt a conspiracy, Third Way literally said they would find it ideal.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

That doesnt even make sense in the context of the discussion, as were referring to Centrists coming to terms with Warren as maybe the nomineenot voting for her in the Primary.

Sorry, I confused "centrist" (aka basically conservative) with "centrist Democrats" (aka establishment/neoliberal). Trump is a hell of a lot closer to centrist than Bernie is so most of them are gonna go for him unless they reay hate Trump.

But in the context of the establishment dems it's related to the primaries more than the general because by putting Warren against Bernie you're discussing the ideal centrist dem candidate. Before the top choices were Biden and Bernie, and Bernie isn't a real option because the establishment hates him. The establishment being able to accept Warren is still a slide to the left for them.

I would hope if Bernie does win the nomination, centrist Democrats still vote for him in the general.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Literally the article Bernie took the bait on says their first choice is Biden and others, so unless it comes down to only Bernie vs Warren, theyre not voting Warren.

... And if it comes down to Bernie vs Warren?

Y'know, the #2 and #3 candidates?
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I'm Bernie leaning Warren as number two, but I think the perception of "There are people who are for Bernie who wouldn't go Warren" comes from a probably tiny, but vocal, sect that is jumping at every chance to run Warren through the mud and promote Bernie as "The one true leader"
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CelesMyUserName posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Literally the article Bernie took the bait on says their first choice is Biden and others, so unless it comes down to only Bernie vs Warren, theyre not voting Warren.

... And if it comes down to Bernie vs Warren?

Y'know, the #2 and #3 candidates?

That would be ideal, but how often does that happen?

Usually the 2 and 3 cannibalize each other.
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There hasn't even been one debate and most people are barely paying attention. These are all fantasy scenarios and worthless to think about. Bernie has a right to make the case that he is the most feared candidate by those who are everything Democratic voters stand against. The only reason Warren voters are offended is because it is a good point.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

CelesMyUserName posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Literally the article Bernie took the bait on says their first choice is Biden and others, so unless it comes down to only Bernie vs Warren, theyre not voting Warren.

... And if it comes down to Bernie vs Warren?

Y'know, the #2 and #3 candidates?

That would be ideal, but how often does that happen?

Usually the 2 and 3 cannibalize each other.

There are 20 other candidates and Warren's rise is factually pulling from Biden too. A lot of Biden support comes from the ignorant electorate that just likes Biden because they know Biden, which Warren's gaining popularity can successfully appeal to. This early into the race Biden hasn't gone through any real competition yet.

Bernie and Warren are still both way ahead of the rest of the pack and that's simply a great thing.
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