Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 316: Goodyear in a Bad Year

(+) Yeah! (+)

Could come up with something clever here, but nothing is more ridiculous that just the facts: two years ago Trump wanted to build a microwave laser ray to burn immigrants away at the border.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/26/us/politics/trump-campaign-immigration.html

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I am not sure of all the details that happened last night in Kenosha. But, it is sad to hear. Time and time again I state how when these protests turn into violent riots that more damage is done than the event they are protesting itself. You saw this coming. I told you yesterday or so that you have people armed in the riots and people armed defending businesses. That it turned deadly is not surprising. This lawlessness needs to stop.

I assume this will turn into a self defense debate at some point for the person who did the shooting as it has in all the other times ala Austin. Hopefully justice is served and the party is charged for a court of law to decide.

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Hard to believe in justice when so many dead black people have gotten none.

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https://mobile.twitter.com/clairenjax/status/1298662358894747648

Jesus 17

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Hard to believe in justice when so many dead black people have gotten none.

We can focus on the miniscule times justice has failed and only act like they happen to certain races to fan the flames, or we can focus on the good of the system and hope it corrects the mistakes that do happen.

We can doubt the entire system due to a crack here and cause a chasm. Or we can try and fix the cracks.

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Corrik7 posted...

We can focus on the miniscule times justice has failed and only act like they happen to certain races to fan the flames, or we can focus on the good of the system and hope it corrects the mistakes that do happen.

We can doubt the entire system due to a crack here and cause a chasm. Or we can try and fix the cracks.

It's already a chasm for the people who have had to bury a loved one though. Kind of the problem, really. I can't even imagine how I could cope if my son was shot by a police officer tbh

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

It's already a chasm for the people who have had to bury a loved one though. Kind of the problem, really. I can't even imagine how I could cope if my son was shot by a police officer tbh

I agree that the people it affects it can't be fixed. And, I agree as an affected person that I wouldn't know how to deal with it either and also probably lash out. This is the expected response of trauma and grief.

We right now can empathize with those who are hurt, but also are in a position to view the whole picture to see that these are isolated incidents that are an extremely small amount of the incidents. We can empathize for those who have been wronged and hope to fix the cracks in their names, while also realizing the demonizing the whole system will only cause more cracks and fracture the entire system.

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https://heavy.com/news/2020/08/kyle-rittenhouse/


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Corrik7 posted...

We can focus on the miniscule times justice has failed and only act like they happen to certain races to fan the flames, or we can focus on the good of the system and hope it corrects the mistakes that do happen.

We can doubt the entire system due to a crack here and cause a chasm. Or we can try and fix the cracks.

From most other people's (in this topic) standpoint, there's already a chasm and has been for years, while you are insisting that there's only cracks and that we should trust the system to fix itself even when it's already evidently failed at this.
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Corrik7 posted...

I am not sure of all the details that happened last night in Kenosha. But, it is sad to hear. Time and time again I state how when these protests turn into violent riots that more damage is done than the event they are protesting itself. You saw this coming. I told you yesterday or so that you have people armed in the riots and people armed defending businesses. That it turned deadly is not surprising. This lawlessness needs to stop.

..."This lawlessness?"

The right to freely assemble and protest or the right to bare arms?

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pyresword posted...

From most other people's (in this topic) standpoint, there's already a chasm and has been for years, while you are insisting that there's only cracks and that we should trust the system to fix itself even when it's already evidently failed at this.

If something works 99.9% of time and has the majority of issues when it is fought back against, I would say that it for the most part works but has a few issues that need fixed in it.

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GildedFool posted...

..."This lawlessness?"

The right to freely assemble and protest or the right to bare arms?

Arson, looting, and assault are lawlessness.

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Corrik7 posted...

I agree that the people it affects it can't be fixed. And, I agree as an affected person that I wouldn't know how to deal with it either and also probably lash out. This is the expected response of trauma and grief.

We right now can empathize with those who are hurt, but also are in a position to view the whole picture to see that these are isolated incidents that are an extremely small amount of the incidents. We can empathize for those who have been wronged and hope to fix the cracks in their names, while also realizing the demonizing the whole system will only cause more cracks and fracture the entire system.

I think in a vacuum I can understand that but there are a lot of isolated incidents every year. I don't agree with some of the language used (ACAB for instance even if I understand why people say that) and even I was a little confused by 'defund the police' before it was explained to me but yeah I think there is little evidence that this isn't a system problem at this point.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I think in a vacuum I can understand that but there are a lot of isolated incidents every year. I don't agree with some of the language used (ACAB for instance even if I understand why people say that) and even I was a little confused by 'defund the police' before it was explained to me but yeah I think there is little evidence that this isn't a system problem at this point.

You should be wary of people who want to explain "defund the police" to you and "ACAB" to you. People have tried to justify these terms to make them not seem so extremist, when a lot of the people using these terms are actually using them as you probably first assessed them. There is a reason why almost all of the democratic party has strayed away from that language and those ideas despite it being people more likely to vote for them.

There are a lot of isolated incidents probably every year since the beginning of time regarding law and order. There is a lot of personalities, situations, circumstances, good/bad people, and even mistakes that can happen in all of time. It is hard to pick out an infallible system in all of history that has worked 100% of the time. It is even harder when you add human nature to the equation due to the fact to err is to be human. Sometimes I empathize for police even because our society expects our police to be mindless perfect machines and have expectations that they can never stand up to. Yes, mistakes can happen and some of them can have very bad results. Compounding that with more and more issues to make the mistakes happen more and more frequently is hardly a solution to me.

We can always strive to do better. And, since we are human there will always be the ability to do better because we aren't perfect.

Edit:

In a whatever analogy I just thought of. It would be like you saying you wanted to cut the Gold Glove winner in baseball because his defense has systemic issues because despite all his great plays and assists from the outfield that he made which saved like 14 runs over replacement, he made an error .1% of the time.

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I think in terms of baseball analogies, I think the people using those terms see the police as more of a negative 8 WAR utility player than a gold glover

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this is clearly similar to Derek "past a diving" Jeter winning gold gloves despite being one of the worst defensive SS of his era.

(just wanted to trash Jeter's defense, carry on)

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FFDragon posted...

I think in terms of baseball analogies, I think the people using those terms see the police as more of a negative 8 WAR utility player than a gold glover

And, the people would be wrong based on the stats.

I can't tell you how many times I have gone into these topics regarding police and people are like HE SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS. THEY DIDN'T HAVE THAT. Etc etc. When it is all 20/20 hindsight with all the details after the fact. Many of you have lost the ability to see it from the cops eyes at the time it is happening. I have zero doubt the cops would ace the hindsight 20/20 with all the details test also.

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Corrik7 posted...

If something works 99.9% of time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

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If the average person fucks up at their job and kills someone they get fired and go to jail.

If a cop fucks up at their job and kills someone they get paid time off.

Leafeon13N posted...

If the average person fucks up at their job and kills someone they get fired and go to jail.

If a cop fucks up at their job and kills someone they get paid time off.

All that really needs to be said about it, honestly.

Fuck police unions. Give cops accountability.

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The Milwaukee Bucks (NBA Team) have boycotted Game 5 of their playoff series in response to what's happening.

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The CDC has, completely ridiculously, changed their covid testing recommendations to this:

"If you have been in close contact (within 6 feet) of a person with a COVID-19 infection for at least 15 minutes but do not have symptoms, you do not necessarily need a test unless you are a vulnerable individual or your health care provider or State or local public health officials recommend you take one.

Fauci is now stating that he was not involved in this discussion, and in fact the meeting where they decided to do this happened while he was undergoing surgery:

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1298731308353499139

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...and it's also now being reported that the CDC was ordered to make this change by people within the White House:

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1298714979860770816

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It's legitimately sad that I don't think we can consider the CDC trustworthy during a pandemic because of shit like this.

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Welp looks like we'll be dealing with this shit well into 21 now.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Fuck police unions. Give cops accountability

For the record rhetoric like this is dumb and going to do more harm to the cause than defund the police has already caused.

Please explain what's dumb about it then.

Because police unions fight to allow cops to go on unpunished whenever they step out of line. They fight for them to not be held accountable.

And because of this, they will continue to do what they do unchecked without concern of being punished. Why are you going to be more careful if you know police unions are going to fight for you to just take a vacation when you screw up and absolve you of any other punishment?

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Leafeon13N posted...

If the average person fucks up at their job and kills someone they get fired and go to jail.

If a cop fucks up at their job and kills someone they get paid time off.

If a cop "fucks" up, they go to jail to too. Making the decision you wish they wouldn't have made is not fucking up when justifiable and reasonable. It is exercising an option under their discretion to use based on the situation.

They shouldn't be forced to possibly die themselves to satisfy you, red.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Please explain what's dumb about it then.

Because police unions fight to allow cops to go on unpunished whenever they step out of line. They fight for them to not be held accountable.

And because of this, they will continue to do what they do unchecked without concern of being punished. Why are you going to be more careful if you know police unions are going to fight for you to just take a vacation when you screw up and absolve you of any other punishment?

Because you are describing every single union that exists and don't realize it. Democrats are pro-unions. Your argument against cop unions can be 1 for 1 applied to others jobs, and you don't seem to realize it. I tried to tell you this before.

I then asked if your only reason for being upset was that taxpayers pay for their dues, when really they don't.

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Corrik7 posted...

They shouldn't be forced to possibly die themselves to satisfy you, red.

When did I ask for this?

I asked for accountability when they do fuck up.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Because police unions fight to allow cops to go on unpunished whenever they step out of line. They fight for them to not be held accountable.

Because it isn't a union issue, it's a systematic issue. The union is there to assure equal treatment as well as an assortment of worker protections you likely are not aware of in the slightest.

Fix the system, don't attack the union.

You want to lose allies to the cause, then keep attacking the union. But when no one listens to you, don't be surprised.

I never said taxpayers pay for union dues.

Tell you what, red. Unlike you who can never provide actual proof backing up the nonsense you spew sometimes, I'll let you just voluntarily educate yourself with some light reading.

"Gosh, I tried to tell you how wrong you were before, but you just don't get it." Lol

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-08-18/police-reform-advocates-scrutiny-police-unions

https://reason.com/2020/07/21/why-are-taxpayers-footing-the-bill-for-full-time-police-union-employees/

Edit: oh, wait. Corrik was the one who dropped that line. And yet I couldn't tell the difference.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Tell you what, red. Unlike you who can never provide actual proof backing up the nonsense you spew sometimes, I'll let you just voluntarily educate yourself with some light reading.

Yeah I think you are missing my stance here. Because we absolutely should be reforming police union contracts and funding. But if you are talking purely abolishing the union and make that your stance you are going to lose me and a lot of supporters for the cause.

"It's not a union issue, it's a systemic one."

YOU ARE SO CLOSE TO THE POINT.

Systemic racism isn't going to be resolved by people breaking shit and saying "Hey don't be racist." It's going to be resolved by saying "if you target people based on their race you WILL get punished."

You can't fix the system without fixing the union. You just can't. Because there's nothing stopping them from still reacting based on race if they don't get punished by it.

Police unions will not allow accountability. And you said you demand accountability. Therefore, you are against the police unions.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Police unions will not allow accountability. And you said you demand accountability. Therefore, you are against the police unions.

No.

And again, I'm against the current structuring of police unions, this is not the same was wanting to abolish the union entirely.

We're past the time where I can edit my previous post but that Milwaukee Brewers game has also been postponed and ESPN is reporting other MLB teams are discussing possible boycotts.

So it's now officially beyond the NBA.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Police unions will not allow accountability. And you said you demand accountability. Therefore, you are against the police unions.

Take the word police out. You described every union. The problem is you still fail to realize this. Have you not worked a union job before?

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Corrik7 posted...

Take the word police out. You described every union. The problem is you still fail to realize this. Have you not worked a union job before?

Probably not. Most jobs in the country are no longer unionized.

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Unions are good to an extent

Like everything else they don't need limitless power.

Unions are great for workers and should be encouraged. But not when they harm things.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Unions are good to an extent

Like everything else they don't need limitless power.

Unions are great for workers and should be encouraged. But not when they harm things.

Unions are good and bad. They prevent companies from taking advantage of workers but they also in an attempt to be fair across the board defend the fuck ups that you know are fucking up and keep them employed.

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xp1337 posted...

We're past the time where I can edit my previous post but that Milwaukee Brewers game has also been postponed and ESPN is reporting other MLB teams are discussing possible boycotts.

So it's now officially beyond the NBA.

I love this so much. Finally Wisconsin does something good and I can be proud of my state.

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Corrik7 posted...

Take the word police out. You described every union. The problem is you still fail to realize this. Have you not worked a union job before?

I'm not for a union that actively takes accountability away from people who have the power to kill without impunity.

The problem is after we reform union contracts, they will still be vehemently fighting to remove accountability from cops. They are a disaster.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

The problem is after we reform union contracts, they will still be vehemently fighting to remove accountability from cops. They are a disaster.

They are a disaster in the current form because we have no independent oversight and no independent system of accountability . Again, you can change that while still having a police union.

And again, you are free to think otherwise but realize pushing such rhetoric makes your desires for police reform dead in the water.

police reform is dead in the water regardless though

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No, it really isn't.

Let's revisit this topic this time next year and we can talk about how nothing has changed

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Sure, but it won't be because the issue is dead. But if you are going to turn off your supporters with dumb rhetoric it will lose in public discourse.