Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 333: Biden out The Storm [2020 Edition]

(+) Yeah! (+)

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Can you explain what the Libertarian argument for the EC is?

It's an orthogonal issue. You'll prob find all kinds of opinions on it. The L party is never gonna get enough votes for it to matter, and if they do, then indeed it will be due to EC shenanigans. But that's not where my opinion comes from.

Personally I just like "minority rule". Statists preach about how popular vote is the defining characteristic of democracy, but it's not - protection of the minority is. To what extent the EC does that is arguable, especially since it's at the state level which is not granular enough to really protect minority interests, and it demands ignoring all but the most battlegroundy states. But popular vote is not better in those regards. A good hint that you're totally missing the point is if you think senators should also scale based on population.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Why would I vote for Jorgensen or Hawkins over Biden when theyre both way worse candidates?

People always focus on FPTP being the reason third parties fail (which is definitely a big part of it), but another big part is that the existent third parties suck.

Jo is a better candidate, dunno about Howie. But yes I understand that you and millions of others prefer Trump and Biden to 3rd parties.

That's the sad reality about all this RCV talk. The vast majority of Americans would just write a 1 and 2 next to Trump and Biden anyways. They don't want more choices.

Might as well still fight for it though because the only other option is pure apathy.

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I'd probably vote for Trump over an actual Libertarian.

At least I know how bad Trump is, I'd rather not give Libertarians an actual platform for the future.

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Support people who will support ranked choice voting.

Or try to get ranked choice voting implemented at local/state levels via petitions etc.

But still vote for Biden to make the election an blowout that can't be ignored.

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foolm0r0n posted...

Jo is a better candidate, dunno about Howie. But yes I understand that you and millions of others prefer Trump and Biden to 3rd parties.

No I would prefer Jorgensen and Hawkins to Trump because they're at least not literal sociopaths, but they still suck.

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red13n posted...

I'd probably vote for Trump over an actual Libertarian.

Yup, that applies to many Democrats. Trump is Hitler and he's also your 2nd choice. Harder to argue with people like that than with a Trump supporter tbh. The leftists can handle it though.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

No I would prefer Jorgensen and Hawkins to Trump because they're at least not literal sociopaths, but they still suck.

Cool! Just don't forget how non-trivial that position is

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foolm0r0n posted...

Yup, that applies to many Democrats. Trump is Hitler and he's also your 2nd choice. Harder to argue with people like that than with a Trump supporter tbh. The leftists can handle it though.

I would never vote for either.

This is a gun to my head have to pick one scenario.

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foolm0r0n posted...

Personally I just like "minority rule". Statists preach about how popular vote is the defining characteristic of democracy, but it's not - protection of the minority is. To what extent the EC does that is arguable, especially since it's at the state level which is not granular enough to really protect minority interests, and it demands ignoring all but the most battlegroundy states. But popular vote is not better in those regards. A good hint that you're totally missing the point is if you think senators should also scale based on population.

I don't think this is a key feature of democracy, or what these systems were originally intended to accomplish or even do (for example the Senate was supposed to allow States to express their interests, and to allow more "intellectual" discussion of popular legislature, neither of which it accomplishes well) and the Senate should be abolished, so yeah consider the point missed.

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Smuffin and foolmo are the only libertarians I've encountered, legit would like to know if being this egotistical is just an inherent trait.

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An election cycle or two back I ran into some honest-to-god real life Libertarians who asked me to sign a petition to get their candidate on the ballot for some office or other. They were very polite! I didn't sign their petition though.

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I consider "libertarian" to just be a commitment to willful ignorance to how society actually functions. Its basically Trumpism but with no convictions. You are choosing to not care about anything because you feel it doesn't impact you.

Would never ever get my vote.

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Not_an_Owl posted...

An election cycle or two back I ran into some honest-to-god real life Libertarians who asked me to sign a petition to get their candidate on the ballot for some office or other. They were very polite! I didn't sign their petition though.

My opinions on libertarians was built back in high school. Had an Economics teacher that was a staunch libertarian.

He was a fun and smart old dude, but if you actually ever had a conversation with him about his beliefs, you'd realize that he'd never thought very deeply about the actual impact of his beliefs. He looked at everything on the outside but couldn't justify the deeper impacts of his own beliefs(Not requiring car insurance was a big one, you'd get deep enough and he couldn't tell you how things would get paid for).

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red13n posted...

He was a fun and smart old dude, but if you actually ever had a conversation with him about his beliefs, you'd realize that he'd never thought very deeply about the actual impact of his beliefs.

Oh for sure! Libertarianism is essentially the party of people who read Atlas Shrugged and thought John Galt was the good guy.

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I used to be a Libertarian. But I became uncomfortable with how far they go. Eventually became more liberal, and now I'm closer to the Green Party. Still voting Democrat. (Howie Hawkins isn't even on my ballot. And I'd take Biden over Jorgensen.) I think I mostly chose Libertarian because I didn't know anything about the Green Party and at the time I was too ignorant to research them. Libertarians, for me, have a lot of the same problems as conservatives. They're extremely set in their ideas.

Someone once told me that Libertarians are further right than republicans on policy, but further left than democrats on social issues. Seems like a weird platform.

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guffguy89 posted...

Someone once told me that Libertarians are further right than republicans on policy, but further left than democrats on social issues. Seems like a weird platform.

Nah

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I mean, at least Republicans believe in trickle down economics. Its complete fantasy, but at least they have convictions.

The libertarian belief is "well he didnt want to pay you, so fuck off and go somewhere else".

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I don't think Republicans actually believe in trickle-down economics. Maybe the voters do.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I don't think Republicans actually believe in trickle-down economics. Maybe the voters do.

I was in fact referring to the voters here.

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Republicans used to believe in trickle-down economics. No one does anymore. We tried it. It didn't work.

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Amazing how when Trumpers block roads none of them get run over randomly- probably because theyre too busy blocking roads and not behind the wheel of a car.

red sox 777 posted...

Republicans used to believe in trickle-down economics. No one does anymore. We tried it. It didn't work.

Not entirely wrong. They try more and more now to pass it off as if things that only affect the super rich actually affect the average american.

They have gotten much better at misrepresenting average/median income to look like the average americans make far more than they do.

Trump has a lot of scare ads right now about how the Biden tax plan is going to cost the "Average" family $6000. Except that math is completely foolish and the average family is going to see an increase in tax liability of...$0.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Smuffin and foolmo are the only libertarians I've encountered, legit would like to know if being this egotistical is just an inherent trait.

I don't this is fair at all. I think foolmo genuinely believes in libertarianism as a philosophy. I disagree with that philosophy but I've never doubted foolmo's sincerity on it. Honestly, of the self-proclaimed libertarians I've encountered I think he might be the most genuine in that I actually think he sticks to those principles where in my experience at least upon discussion others tend to reveal they're actually Republicans who have appropriated the label for whatever reason. Not that they admit it, of course.

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PerfectChaosZ posted...

Amazing how when Trumpers block roads none of them get run over randomly- probably because theyre too busy blocking roads and not behind the wheel of a car.

Its because none of them were black.

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guffguy89 posted...

Someone once told me that Libertarians are further right than republicans on policy, but further left than democrats on social issues. Seems like a weird platform.

They're only further left on social issues when it involves less government control/regulations. For example, they would be for the legalization of all drugs and allow anyone to immigrate to their country. On the flip side they would not be for socialized medicine or protecting worker's rights.

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Something I would like to ponder.

In the all too hopeful scenario where Biden sweeps hard enough that he's the obvious winner even on Tuesday night, what does that mean for the NEAR future of the Republican party?

We're going to see a split between the Trump mindset voters and those trying to pivot away, but will that be enough to do severe damage to Republican candidates in each offset year?

I just don't see the entire party uniting behind an extremist on either side of the camp come 2024. There will still be large portions of Trump voters who refuse to unite behind a soft /centrist candidate, and vice versa.

Who knows what could change by then, though. The 2022 elections would be a very telling time in this scenario.

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I hope the Republican Party is broken after this.

xp1337 posted...

I don't this is fair at all. I think foolmo genuinely believes in libertarianism as a philosophy. I disagree with that philosophy but I've never doubted foolmo's sincerity on it. Honestly, of the self-proclaimed libertarians I've encountered I think he might be the most genuine in that I actually think he sticks to those principles where in my experience at least upon discussion others tend to reveal they're actually Republicans who have appropriated the label for whatever reason. Not that they admit it, of course.

I'll admit to being biased due to foolmo being pretty egotistical and smug outside of politics topics in general. It's tough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.

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The Republican party is probably the party of Trump until Trump dies.

If he doesn't die before 2024 he will absolutely run again.

Hes an old rich dude that enjoys nothing beyond feeding his own ego. He will keep running Trump rallies til hes dead(And when hes out of office and not running, he can profit from these rallies).

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Something I would like to ponder.

In the all too hopeful scenario where Biden sweeps hard enough that he's the obvious winner even on Tuesday night, what does that mean for the NEAR future of the Republican party?

We're going to see a split between the Trump mindset voters and those trying to pivot away, but will that be enough to do severe damage to Republican candidates in each offset year?

No, two years is enough time for Republicans to go on an apology tour, wait for the Biden admin or a Dem Congress to do something they don't like, and then pivot back to being the bold opposition party that's the sole bulwark against liberal tyranny.

Maybe a complicating factor is what Trump decides to be yelling about while they do this, but that could also help them distance themselves.

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If Trump loses, 2024 will likely go back to the usual Republican formula where the voter base has to decide between a right-center career politician or a hyper-conservative (and somehow always socially awkward) candidate. This is assuming another Trump-like figure doesnt emerge.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

No, two years is enough time for Republicans to go on an apology tour, wait for the Biden admin or a Dem Congress to do something they don't like, and then pivot back to being the bold opposition party that's the sole bulwark against liberal tyranny.

Maybe a complicating factor is what Trump decides to be yelling about while they do this, but that could also help them distance themselves.

The politicians are one thing, but I think you are giving the voters way too much credit if you think they'll pivot that easily away from Trump.

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guffguy89 posted...

If Trump loses, 2024 will likely go back to the usual Republican formula where the voter base has to decide between a right-center career politician or a hyper-conservative (and somehow always socially awkward) candidate. This is assuming another Trump-like figure doesnt emerge.

And assuming that Trump doesn't run again after claiming the election was fraudulent for 4 years

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The Republican Party is not going to apologize for anything. If the Democrats lose again, they should strongly consider it.

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Let's not forget that Trump is really old.

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guffguy89 posted...

Let's not forget that Trump is really old.

...hes almost 4 years younger than Biden.

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But he's also overweight, generally unhealthy, and caught Covid.

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Trump is still the oldest first time president (only Regan's second term was older). The fact Biden is older is more of an anomaly than anything.

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I mean, I'm not betting on him being alive in 4 years.

But its possible.

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Trump's going to try and fire Fauci after the election

https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1323131659152183296

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I think it should also be noted that the Republican party is behind Trump out of necessity right now. Back in 2016, they did not want him to be their candidate and the never-trump movement had quite a few backers. That's what makes Trump's nomination and election somewhat intriguing in that he was the candidate chosen by the people not by the party. Not sure if this speaks highly to the voter base for backing such a candidate, but at least it was their choice.

Meanwhile the democrats have been handing their candidate on a silver platter to voters. Problem is they aren't picking really good ones. Maybe they should let the voters decide for once....worked well in 2008 for them.

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guffguy89 posted...

Meanwhile the democrats have been handing their candidate on a silver platter to voters. Problem is they aren't picking really good ones. Maybe they should let the voters decide for once....worked well in 2008 for them.

???

Hillary and Biden got the most votes in their respective primaries (and neither were close). The voters did pick them.

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guffguy89 posted...

I think it should also be noted that the Republican party is behind Trump out of necessity right now.

This may have been true in 2016, but I don't think it's true at all anymore. There's a reason their party platform right now is "Whatever Trump wants" and he gets literally no opposition from them whatsoever. I think he ended up being exactly what they actually wanted and they just didn't realize it back then.

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foolm0r0n posted...

It's an orthogonal issue. You'll prob find all kinds of opinions on it. The L party is never gonna get enough votes for it to matter, and if they do, then indeed it will be due to EC shenanigans. But that's not where my opinion comes from.

Personally I just like "minority rule". Statists preach about how popular vote is the defining characteristic of democracy, but it's not - protection of the minority is. To what extent the EC does that is arguable, especially since it's at the state level which is not granular enough to really protect minority interests, and it demands ignoring all but the most battlegroundy states. But popular vote is not better in those regards. A good hint that you're totally missing the point is if you think senators should also scale based on population.

That's really idiotic.

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foolm0r0n posted...

No, you should use your vote to help your cause instead of completely wasting it. It's just a potential bonus that the Ds might respect you a little bit more for it out of fear.

I did a lot of low level work for independents a decade ago

Now is not the time to pull that bullshit

What you're saying makes sense when the two parties are offering the same thing. They are not offering the same thing now nor in 2016

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Trump's going to try and fire Fauci after the election

https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/1323131659152183296

In case you forgot, it's a cult, folks.

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red sox 777 posted...

Unless the third party uses their EVs as leverage to get what they want. They announce their electors will vote for whichever one of the duopoly parties who will give them what they want. It'll be a coalition, like happens in the UK from time to time.

The UK is a perfect example of why that doesnt work. The UK is not like the US, the vote is pretty pluralistic. Only once in the past 50 years have the two main parties gotten over 80% of the vote, in 2017 with 82%. Yet they almost consistently get ~90%+ of the seats, and its even worse when you remove the regional parties - only 12/580 seats not held by a regional party are held by a party other than Labour or the Conservatives, despite that accounting for a large percentage of the vote. Only two parliaments in that time have had coalitions or confidence and supply agreements, and one of them was only because Northern Ireland has a different set of parties. This is despite no party getting a majority of the vote in nearly 100 years. This is entirely down to the first past the post electoral system. On the other hand, if you look at Ireland, the STV system here results in much more proportionate - but still locally representative - parliaments and coalitions are almost constant. If you want this to be viable, you need electoral reform.

Also that is a system much more comparable to the house. Pledging your electoral votes gives you no power at all.

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StealThisSheen posted...

This may have been true in 2016, but I don't think it's true at all anymore. There's a reason their party platform right now is "Whatever Trump wants" and he gets literally no opposition from them whatsoever. I think he ended up being exactly what they actually wanted and they just didn't realize it back then.

Depends on who you mean. Trump is exactly what Republican voters want, but the party leadership is only sticking with Trump because he's more popular than them. The reason their only stated goals are "whatever Trump wants" is because even their own voters hate most of the GOP's real policy goals.
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Trafalgar's chief pollster saying definitively that their will be enough "systematic voter fraud" by Dems in PA that Trump will need to beat Biden by 4 or 5 points there to actually win:

https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/1323087162938720256

Something tells me this dude is not totally on the level

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