Board 8 > MCU General 11 - Wong: Fugitive From the Law

(+) Yeah! (+)

Sorry I forgot to mention Bob Chipman is fairly big outside of YT as well, I just didn't know how to introduce him. Also, he made that mostly in response to how much the Internet seems to like hating on Marvel Phase 4, with him singling out MauLer's 5-hour rant on the new Doctor Strange.

I would say I don't entirely understand what the whole deal is with people hating on Phase 4 because it has "no plan" when I've always seen the MCU as an all-you-can-eat buffet situation where you just take whatever you want and leave the rest, except I know they're just bigots who like to complain about everything to advance their anti-progressive agenda. That was the main reason I saw fit to bring up moviebob. Also, I was thinking about how I was genuinely looking forward to Captain Marvel before its release on its own merits and not just for being a lead-up to Endgame.

If all you want to say is "people who dislike popular stuff are bigots," which has become your go-to move, then just say that and stop wasting our time with randos

(Also nice job to provide cover for yourself from bigotry by mentioning you were actually looking forward to Captain Marvel at one point)

I loved Captain Marvel and I don't care what anybody else thinks about that. My daughters are really into her too (I had to call half a dozen McDonald's when they had the Marvel toys the first go around because we needed a Captain Marvel for each of them, and hadn't found them normally yet).

I am not a bigot

Phase 4 sucks and part of the reason is a less defined overarching narrative

sorry if I just blew your mind LMS

I don't like most of Phase 4 either. I wasn't speaking of every critique of it, more just the mob mentality than anything. Also, they're bigots because of the way they express their dislike towards parts of Phase 4, not just because they don't like it.

I've similarly come to realize that at least 60% of all negative online discourse surrounding The Last Jedi if not the whole sequel trilogy is rooted in an anti-progressive mindset, but that's another story. My point wasn't that everyone who hates these media must be a bigot, it's more that lots of people who ordinarily don't even care about the franchises in question are taking advantage of divisiveness to further their own political agendas.

LinkMarioSamus posted...

The Last Jedi

Seek God, LMS.

"I've similarly come to realize this thing I've said ad nauseum for months now"

You don't have to keep saying the same things over and over again. Figure out something new to say you didn't hear from some rando.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Phase 4s problem is too much content.

Yeah I said it. Sue me.

I don't think it's just that. It's having a lot of content that doesn't have an obvious connection to anything else (at least not yet).

Just me trying to explain myself so I don't look as bad. Also, the whole reason I brought up Captain Marvel was to counter the whole idea that people only saw the movie because it would be pivotal to Endgame since the criticism of Phase 4 has having "no concrete plan" reminded me of that - as if the only reason to watch MCU content is to see where it's all going. Though I do say this as someone who isn't especially big on the team-up movies compared to other MCU films - I'd say that I prefer Captain America: The First Avenger, Black Panther, Iron Man, and Spider-Man: No Way Home to any Avengers film. Albeit it would be very close in Captain America's case.

Mostly to me that's an integral part of the franchise's identity, that there's something for everyone and you don't need everything. I've also always felt the MCU's supposed problems with continuity lockout are greatly exaggerated, though obviously you shouldn't do anything like starting with Endgame because that's stupid. I was able to go straight from Avengers to Ragnarok to Infinity War without feeling I was missing much, and just filed characters in the last one not involved in the other two off as heroes of other stories. Heck I hadn't even seen Iron Man or Captain America: The First Avenger until after watching Endgame and I found those two movies more poignant for it.

Captain America 1 > Infinity Wars is a legitimate hot take, well done

UltimaterializerX posted...

Phase 4s problem is too much content.

Yeah I said it. Sue me.

I wrote a lot and just deleted it, but I'd say it's simply just a case of inconsistent quality across the titles. And yes, there's a lot, which makes the bad stuff stick out more. But it's hard to pin down a singular reason when the movie featuring the flagship Marvel character that's in the MCU was stated by many to be the singular best MCU movie. And some of the shows have been much loved.

If the argument is that "there is so much content that perspectives are just skewed in every direction" then sure, but that doesn't mean Phase 4 is bad for having content. It's just all over the place in terms of quality that it's hard to really grade Phase 4.

Phase 4 I'm only down on Black Widow. The rest of the movies I've been pretty good with... Thor was awkward but I still really enjoyed the back half of it.

D+ shows have been pretty up & down, but still mostly enjoyable.

3 > 4 > 2 > 1, given that BP2's all that's remaining I don't see how it can bump 4 up over 3 so this should be pretty set.

LinkMarioSamus posted...

Just me trying to explain myself so I don't look as bad.

It's making you look worse. I'll be honest I got a lot of patience and I haven't been putting up with you as long as everyone else here, but you are starting to get on my nerves over this shit. You don't come into these topics for discussion and you only respond to posts that address the random youtubers you talk about and your responses to those posts is always just to repeat what you've already said.

4 might be the worst one yeah. Haven't hated it though.

Black Widow > Thor 4

Johnbobb posted...

Black Widow > Thor 4

Oh absolutely

I thought Black Widow was perfectly fine middle of the road MCU fare

I loved Captain marvel too. Phase four hasnt been great but youre willingly blind if you dont see that at least half if not more of the criticism is minorities bad or wokeeee :( and not just on YouTube.

Phase 4 D+ shows > Phase 4 Movies?

Seanchan posted...

Phase 4 D+ shows > Phase 4 Movies?

Eugh, you can't even say that.

There's a lot of content in Phase 4 and it's all over the spectrum. That's the short of it.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Eugh, you can't even say that.

There's a lot of content in Phase 4 and it's all over the spectrum. That's the short of it.

Yeah this, they're both like 50/50 imo. I'd honestly lean the movies as a whole over the shows by just a bit, but only because the worst of the shows has been worse than the worst of the movies

Of course theyre also producing much more content at once than the other phases. Wed get Thor 2 and thats all we had for so long waiting on the next thing to come out wouldnt be for a long time so it got immortalized as a terrible movie. Whereas Miss Marvel came out and people rallied against it but now its over and theres the next thing to talk about next month.

Lets break it down here. Italics = not finished yet or unreleased

Movies
Black Widow
Shang-Chi
Eternals
Spider-Man: NWH
Dr Strange: MoM
Thor: L&T
Black Panther 2

For me, that's 2 good (Spidey, Strange), 2 okay (Thor, Shang-Chi), and 2 "whatever" (Widow, Eternals).

Series
Wandavision
Falcon and Winter Soldier
Loki
What If
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Ms. Marvel
She-Hulk
Untitled Halloween special
GotG Holiday Special

For me, that's 2 good (Wanda, What If), 4 okay (Falcon, Loki, Hawkeye, Moon Knight), and 1 "whatever" (Ms. Marvel). ...I know I'm higher on What If than just about anyone else.

I think best movies > best series but also worst movies < worst shows. If I could have only the movies or the series, I think I would very slightly favor the series but it's a pretty close call.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Of course theyre also producing much more content at once than the other phases. Wed get Thor 2 and thats all we had for so long waiting on the next thing to come out wouldnt be for a long time so it got immortalized as a terrible movie. Whereas Miss Marvel came out and people rallied against it but now its over and theres the next thing to talk about next month.

Yeah, that's a big part of it. Good? Bad? Doesn't matter! Onto the next hit. It makes each entry (movie or series) feel less "special" than it used to.

I'd say

Great
Spiderman: NWH
Dr Strange: MoM

Good
Eternals
Shang-Chi
Black Widow

Not Good
Thor: L&T

vs

Great
Wandavision
Hawkeye

Good
What If
Moon Knight (inconsistent, sometimes great and sometimes bad)
Loki

Not Good
Falcon and Winter Soldier
Ms. Marvel

I'd say the TV lows are much lower than the film lows at this moment - poor production, atrocious writing that is slipping more and more with each project... Phase 4, judged by just the movies comes across as a setup phase, but with TV, it seems like Marvel is completely lost. However, I think that narrative comes out of 2022 alone, and if we look at 2021 by itself, we say there's direction to the grander universe that isn't there in 2022 (outside of Dr. Strange).

I thought the D+ TV shows were okay and then I watched Daredevil S1 and was like, oh, I was operating under a completely different level of standards and expectations

I think Hawkeye is great, I think Wandavision is great except it stumbles on the landing, and the rest of them are... ok-to-not-great.

On a certain level, do the D+ shows really matter that much? A cynical take would be that they're being made to keep people subscribed to D+, and so, as long as a the shows aren't atrocious, they're cheap enough to fulfill that objective. A couple of bad shows in a row won't sink the MCU, but a couple of bad movies certainly could.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I thought the D+ TV shows were okay and then I watched Daredevil S1 and was like, oh, I was operating under a completely different level of standards and expectations

I think Hawkeye is great, I think Wandavision is great except it stumbles on the landing, and the rest of them are... ok-to-not-great.

yes

They matter in that they are a key piece (along with Star Wars) to keep people subscribed to D+ monthly, and it appears in that, they are a success and matter significantly.

In terms of the MCU value, introducing new characters is going to depend on who our next crop of Avengers are, but WandaVision played a crucial role to Dr. Strange, Loki has played a crucial role for Quantumania, Ms. Marvel is the second lead (as far as we know) in Captain Marvel 2, and I'm sure handing the shield to Falcon is going to be of immense importance. Now, you could argue "yeah, but how important are these stories to those?" and the answer is always, "to the studio, they've made it clear it's as important as they can manage it".

The problem with Phase 4 has just been how they've watered everything down. We've had so many opportunities for interesting stories and unique genres, but they all just end up feeling the same.

Seanchan posted...

On a certain level, do the D+ shows really matter that much?

Yes, when they're designed to set up major pieces of the franchise and are advertised as necessary viewing with the franchise as a whole

Loki literally introduces who they're making out to be the next big bad of the series, Ms. Marvel is (supposedly) setting up the upcoming The Marvels, Hawkeye directly connects to both Black Widow and several upcoming shows/movies, etc. Arguably Moon Knight and What If? are the only ones that don't really matter.

BetrayedTangy posted...

The problem with Phase 4 has just been how they've watered everything down. We've had so many opportunities for interesting stories and unique genres, but they all just end up feeling the same.

That's secretly the issue with Marvel films, all of the time. Everything always is just a little pre-chewed. Sometimes, that studio interference produces no real negative influence, and other times, the Marvel formula really steers something away from a unique or bold direction. The shows in particular on D+ really demonstrate how much they fall back on the formula to the detriment of the project, imo.

I generally enjoy the movies more because they still feel like significant tentpole events. The shows feel like more uneven experiences. With the movies, I feel like I'm more prone to go, "That was awesome." With the shows, it's more like, "Huh, that was neat."

scarletspeed7 posted...

They matter in that they are a key piece (along with Star Wars) to keep people subscribed to D+ monthly, and it appears in that, they are a success and matter significantly.

In terms of the MCU value, introducing new characters is going to depend on who our next crop of Avengers are, but WandaVision played a crucial role to Dr. Strange, Loki has played a crucial role for Quantumania, Ms. Marvel is the second lead (as far as we know) in Captain Marvel 2, and I'm sure handing the shield to Falcon is going to be of immense importance. Now, you could argue "yeah, but how important are these stories to those?" and the answer is always, "to the studio, they've made it clear it's as important as they can manage it".

I think you did a better job of getting at what I was feeling, that the series are more important to D+ than they are to the MCU. (FYI, not implying you feel the same.)

Johnbobb posted...

Yes, when they're designed to set up major pieces of the franchise and are advertised as necessary viewing with the franchise as a whole

Loki literally introduces who they're making out to be the next big bad of the series, Ms. Marvel is (supposedly) setting up the upcoming The Marvels, Hawkeye directly connects to both Black Widow and several upcoming shows/movies, etc. Arguably Moon Knight and What If? are the only ones that don't really matter.

Which isn't to say that they're not important at all, just that it's hard to see Marvel ever making the shows required viewing for broader MCU understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the movies have provided "enough" explanation for any elements with origin from a series that the "deep dive" is optional.

She-Hulk 4 tonighttt

betting on tinder scene this week

Seanchan posted...

I think you did a better job of getting at what I was feeling, that the series are more important to D+ than they are to the MCU. (FYI, not implying you feel the same.)

I do feel that the shows have, at least in 2022, declined in perceived value to the overall MCU. I'd argue differently about 2021's D+ fare, where I think they genuinely gave equally important material to film and television.

Seanchan posted...

Which isn't to say that they're not important at all, just that it's hard to see Marvel ever making the shows required viewing for broader MCU understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the movies have provided "enough" explanation for any elements with origin from a series that the "deep dive" is optional.

The only one that's had a chance to reference the shows so far is Doctor Strange, and none of Wanda's motivations about getting her children back make any sense without watching Wanda/Vision because her children didn't exist in the movies

I think they say enough about her kids that you can basically get it. The D+ shows may give you a reference to the new bad guy, but hes really getting introduced in the new Ant-Man, not Loki. Miss Marvel may have a fun little adventure in her show but shell still have to explain who she is to Captain Marvel in the movie for everyone who didnt watch that show. Theyll end up slightly more connected but glossed over just like AoS I think. No way they make them required viewing for the movies. If you take Phase 4 as just the movies it gives off a better quality.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I thought the D+ TV shows were okay and then I watched Daredevil S1 and was like, oh, I was operating under a completely different level of standards and expectations

I think Hawkeye is great, I think Wandavision is great except it stumbles on the landing, and the rest of them are... ok-to-not-great.

yeah, i wonder if more people overrate the tv shows because they're watching them through MCU glasses. i don't think any of the shows i've seen were great. wandavision was good but even that had a lot of flaws.

but i haven't seen hawkeye yet and a lot of people tell me it's great, so...

Do people overrate the D+ shows? I can't really think of any one of them that has a particularly high consensus appraisal. Nobody's put any of them on the league of DD1... nor should they, as DD itself couldn't keep to that bar with its next season let alone other Netflix Marvel stinkers.

she hulk is 10/10 cuz guess what? episode 4 is up and Wong is back baby

its wonging time

Mr_Lasastryke posted...

but i haven't seen hawkeye yet and a lot of people tell me it's great, so...

Hawkeye is the one show I'll really really swear by

It does have a couple of flaws that nag at me but by and large it is great

spent the whole episode wondering why Donny blaze looked so familiar, turns out he was the guy from I Think You Should Leaves skeleton song sketch

easily best episode oh god, comedy had me throughout and then hell yeah climax

totally called tinder scene post #85 suck it, although oh man fitting in a She-Hulk + Wongers team-up between the date was a reallll treat

also not that it needed confirming but next morning dude not knowing jen confirms she-hulk gets the smash ^5 girl

also a showcase for the supremacy of shorter eps with a higher count because a 6-episode series really wouldn't be able to fit in an ep like this that doesn't hugely move the plot but is nonetheless its own fun adventure

IfGodCouldDie posted...

It's making you look worse. I'll be honest I got a lot of patience and I haven't been putting up with you as long as everyone else here, but you are starting to get on my nerves over this shit. You don't come into these topics for discussion and you only respond to posts that address the random youtubers you talk about and your responses to those posts is always just to repeat what you've already said.

In this case I figured it was about a reasonably relevant issue, but point taken all the same.

oh by the way today's also the day for Thor: Love & Thunder on Disney+, for whoever decided to wait on it.

They're surprisingly nice about how quickly they push stuff to Disney+

That ep was fucking hysterical

LinkMarioSamus posted...

In this case I figured it was about a reasonably relevant issue, but point taken all the same.

It's never relevant because you're never contributing to the current flow of conversation. You just drop in and say whatever it is you want to say.

And don't say "point taken" as if you won't do the exact same thing again later. It's not a point taken if the behavior doesn't change.

GuessMyUserName posted...

oh by the way today's also the day for Thor: Love & Thunder on Disney+, for whoever decided to wait on it.

Fiiiinally. After the mixed reviews I couldn't bring myself to see it in theaters, whereas MoM had me rushing to see it in the first week. Probably because Dr. Strange is hotter than Thor yeah I said it

I'm not sure where Lady Thor stands yet