Board 8 > Dota 2 Mafia 2 Topic 1 - A Moba Mafia of Moderate Mayhem

(+) Yeah! (+)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Oh, I misread it.

But again, I don't recall a recent game where I was Scum and you buddied up to me anyway. Might have happened in Kingmaker though I don't recall if you were in that game.

Here's what you gotta ask yourself

Han has evolved his thoughts rapidly about people. Me and Lea in particular. I would argue at a glance that his red and sbell thoughts haven't seemed particularly consistent either.

Is it "interrogation technique" or is it "getting caught and walking it back" which seems more likely? Is it possible to interrogate without contradicting yourself?

Han who are the likely scum right now? Let's drive something, who do you drive.

Since nobody else said I guess I will be the one to do it

Ulti, catch up please.

Ulti feels lethargic.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

The game where somebody mislynched me as doctor d1 and then mislynched Lea in final 3

So there was 1 game where Lea buddied up to you and you both ended up being town.

Now Lea is NOT buddying up to you in the first 5 pages of this game and has instead voted for you and this looks bad for her.

not scientifically sound.

The thing that makes me hesitate on Han is because he makes foolish decisions on D1 sometimes. Like trying to push a lynch on townie Ben during the final hour of the day back in Nickelodeon Mafia, which is the game he cites in this post:

HanOfTheNekos posted...

The game where somebody mislynched me as doctor d1 and then mislynched Lea in final 3

... Which yeah no Lea definitely thought Ben was town on D1. Damn near everybody did except you. I don't follow this logic at all, and yet, that's precisely the reason you got lynched as Town Doctor.

Lea is either ignoring me or missing my posts so I will try once more.

I asked what made you change your mind about Kirby, you answered that it was because claiming something more than miller is more risky, but Kirby already made that clear the previous night.

Kirby321 posted...

A Miller counterclaim? I don't see scum Lea trying something as bold as this so early into the game. And with Role Madness taken into account, I can believe two Millers, especially since my particular role is a bit nuanced. My role is effectively a Miller but not exactly a conventional one. I imagine Lea's role also has similar quirks, and if we're both truthful, those specific quirks don't need to be discussed this early into the game.

That's the post he repeated today he wanted you to answer to. You then did by suggesting same time claim, which Kirby didn't want to, but just accepted that you could be town if you had a modifier.

AFTER he said that Death made the following post.

htaeD posted...

That contradiction being (which is now more interesting to me due to your posts just now)why did you plan to draw a scumkill?

Which you thought was a "potentially extremely good catch", but then finally starts to believe Kirby because he's not plain miller. But again, that's what he had already done a night earlier! Then when I pointed this out you ignored it and just claimed ninja in addition. Then once again didn't reply to what I said about changing your mind and Kirby giving you the information that made you change your mind not at all lining up.

I don't think this looks good at all.

I swear I have seen other players make that argument that Han made about Lea
Maybe Han himself as well.
Its like instinct when voted for...

A town Ninja is a weird claim but why would scum claim that Ulti?

I have identified no idy I would call likely Scum at the moment. I think the people who have been at the forefront are more likely to be Town.

To find Scum, I would look at people flying more under the radar (like Corrik), but I wouldn't really want to hound Corrik unless he fails to show up by tonight.

Otherwise, what I said about Red is still true but Red tends to not really have much impact until D4 anyway. I can wait until he turns back up insisting that he's done more than I have this day so far.

Also, Lopen, I haven't been caught. I've made posts, garnered reactions, and adjusted my thoughts based on that.

One might consider that as "playing Mafia".

So you feel you successfully garnered a reaction in the 3 minutes between calling me scared and calling me town?

I guess I shouldn't complain that I'm being ignored while not having a vote down so

##vote: Lea

Trust Kirby more after that, though I'm not convinced you aren't both scum and tried to set that up.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Let her answer her own questions. Thanks :)

Hey Death, what happened on pages 4 and 5 that forced you to make it a point to yell at me to catch up?

Im not answering her question i am genuinely asking you one

I thought Han was known for Hangut. I'm surprised he hasn't invoked that yet on anybody.

You know... I think I've only played with Han twice, and in both games, I contributed to his lynch. My accuracy rate is about 50%, so... screw it. It's time to turn the pressure up.

##Unvote
##Vote: Han

Why'd you do it, Han? Why did you kill the minion under tower without CSing?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Let her answer her own questions. Thanks :)

Hey Death, what happened on pages 4 and 5 that forced you to make it a point to yell at me to catch up?

Lea and Kirby became best friends I guess, also we discussed the whole thing already that you voted Kirby for
And Kirby answered that point in... an interesting way.
Just didnt know if you saw all that.

Hrm not a fan of that vote, Kirby

Maybe I can be in the miller mason club soon too.

Our numbers can only grow as we suffocate scum.

htaeD posted...

Hrm not a fan of that vote, Kirby

But why?

Lopen posted...

But why?

The last sentence mostly. Wasting time with a joke question instead of something that could lead to something. Feels like a keeping-hands-clean kinda deal.

htaeD posted...

I swear I have seen other players make that argument that Han made about Lea
Maybe Han himself as well.
Its like instinct when voted for...

Hey, there's at least some variation to this.
Like, I think it's more likely for Lopen to hound me as Town than as Scum. Same for Ulti.

I think it's more likely Lea sees me as Town quick enough, as Town.

Obellisk posted...

So there was 1 game where Lea buddied up to you and you both ended up being town.

Now Lea is NOT buddying up to you in the first 5 pages of this game and has instead voted for you and this looks bad for her.

not scientifically sound.

You asked for an example, I gave you an example. Why are you getting upset that I gave you exactly what you want?

More to the point, SBell, you have specifically cited me as calling you Scum in "every single game", in the past. If that's the case, then why are you pushing me here? Shouldn't a Town SBell see that as standard for my play?

And more to the point, you've been loading up support to push me this whole time, but what you haven't done is backed it up. Seems pretty weak for you.

Lopen posted...

But why?

It's a weird justification for voting me.

Lopen posted...

Maybe I can be in the miller mason club soon too.

Our numbers can only grow as we suffocate scum.

I've still got my eye on you.

Don't think I've forgotten that time when Han attempted to throw you under the bus in Kingmaker Mafia. Granted, I doubt you and Han are both scum, but for now, I'm more interesting in putting pressure on Han, especially since has said almost nothing about the whole Miller thing.

Yeah, going to be honest, not that big of a fan of the Han train right now. While it's true he's not as obvtown as he was instantly in Baseball Musical, he hasn't done anything especially scummy? My gut feeling is this is an attempt to get rid of a strong player early, at least with Kirby's vote.

Hbthebattle posted...

Yeah, going to be honest, not that big of a fan of the Han train right now. While it's true he's not as obvtown as he was instantly in Baseball Musical, he hasn't done anything especially scummy? My gut feeling is this is an attempt to get rid of a strong player early, at least with Kirby's vote.

But Hb, I said Lopen was "scared", then I determined later that based on his reaction to that post among others that I'm leaning Town on him. If that's not Scum, what could it be???

That said Han, I dont think this 'you should see how town I am' defense is working for you.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

But Hb, I said Lopen was "scared", then I determined later that based on his reaction to that post among others that I'm leaning Town on him. If that's not Scum, what could it be???

I dunno Han, calling people town seems pretty sus to me

htaeD posted...

That said Han, I dont think this 'you should see how town I am' defense is working for you.

That's not what I'm doing, is it? I'm just being forthright and explaining that what people are trying to grasp and call Scummy is just basic parts about playing the game.

During Mafia, you look for Scum. You make posts. You sometimes make posts to see how people react to them. Based on peoples' reactions, you adjust your thoughts.

During the course of this whole thing, it has led me to think that you and Sultan are Town. It has also given other players a chance to weigh-in.

I'm not afraid of being lynched. I'll likely die on an early night anyway. Content is good for Town.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

But Hb, I said Lopen was "scared", then I determined later that based on his reaction to that post among others that I'm leaning Town on him. If that's not Scum, what could it be???

3 minutes later.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It's a weird justification for voting me.

That's hypocritical. So you can make contradictory statements and walk it back as reaction testing, but if I vote for you to see how you'd handle the pressure, that's a weird justification?

This brings me back to the Kingmaker days where you insisted that anyone not voting for you as king scum was anti-town. And you were scum that game, too.

Kirby321 posted...

The thing that makes me hesitate on Han is because he makes foolish decisions on D1 sometimes. Like trying to push a lynch on townie Ben during the final hour of the day back in Nickelodeon Mafia, which is the game he cites in this post:

... Which yeah no Lea definitely thought Ben was town on D1. Damn near everybody did except you. I don't follow this logic at all, and yet, that's precisely the reason you got lynched as Town Doctor.

Also, this is wrong. I got mislynched because A. I was trying to push ANYONE to create content, and was blocked each time, including by mafia. Because I was trying to get something to happen, some small group of people got confused and pushed at me without being clever enough to see that the lynch was being manipulated by stonewalling pushes on Scum (and/or Ben who I don't really remember anything about from that game).

And B. Didn't claim Doctor

And C. Rate limited

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


It's fine, I don't believe you'd do it intentionally regardless of alignment. I'm a bit skeptical of how quick you were to take back the STC offer too. Like you suggested that, Kirby thought you had done enough and then you also thought he had done enough. Like, if you thought STC would be strong, why back down from it and claim more of your role later by yourself? I'm not saying STC is necessarily what I think would be the best play, but I don't understand the quick change of mind about everything there. If you think it wouldn't make sense for miller detective or whatever to be thinking about drawing a kill like Kirby did, should you not still be more wary of him than believe him right away?

Kirby321 posted...

anyone not voting for you as king scum was anti-town

*that not voting for you as king was anti-town

HanOfTheNekos posted...

That's not what I'm doing, is it? I'm just being forthright and explaining that what people are trying to grasp and call Scummy is just basic parts about playing the game.

During Mafia, you look for Scum. You make posts. You sometimes make posts to see how people react to them. Based on peoples' reactions, you adjust your thoughts.

During the course of this whole thing, it has led me to think that you and Sultan are Town. It has also given other players a chance to weigh-in.

I'm not afraid of being lynched. I'll likely die on an early night anyway. Content is good for Town.

Maybe not. But thats what the result comes across to me at times.

Ironically I found out that Lopen is the player who used that defense last role madness game, as scum.
That said his scumgame in the last role madness was more of a 'going with the tide' kinda player. So I do think Lopen is likelier to be town here.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

You asked for an example, I gave you an example. Why are you getting upset that I gave you exactly what you want?

I asked you for your experience with Lea which leads you to make such a comment. You gave me a single example of a game you've played together. You misread my post again?

And don't "you mad bro" me. Thats extremely obnoxious when you and i both know there are zero emotions to be had here.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

More to the point, SBell, you have specifically cited me as calling you Scum in "every single game", in the past. If that's the case, then why are you pushing me here? Shouldn't a Town SBell see that as standard for my play?

You... haven't called me scum this game. You just didn't like my first post and then liked future posts. Are you, in fact, calling me scum?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

And more to the point, you've been loading up support to push me this whole time, but what you haven't done is backed it up. Seems pretty weak for you.

I've made it very clear in past games that i don't ever feel the need to drop a vote down until i deem it necessary. Asking you to explain yourself and not voting for you isn't weak, its investigative.

And frankly, prior to this post of yours which i just broke down, i was fairly neutral on you. Its not till you got very defensive here that I have truly started to feel a twinge.

Kirby321 posted...

That's hypocritical. So you can make contradictory statements and walk it back as reaction testing, but if I vote for you to see how you'd handle the pressure, that's a weird justification?

This brings me back to the Kingmaker days where you insisted that anyone not voting for you as king scum was anti-town. And you were scum that game, too.

It is a weird justification. Having a weird justification for voting someone and seeing how well someone would handle the pressure are not mutually exclusive.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I don't mind being voted here, long as I keep my own emotions under check. But at some point, my honesty won't have anything more to offer if people just stick to guns. I mean, I can say "I'm adjusting my reads of people after I throw suspicion on them to see how they react", and others can say "He's just trying to see what sticks", and neither can be proven until I get lynched, which as recent history shows us, I am more likely to be right in that instance.

SBell, all you're doing is taking what I've said and twisting it to put me in the worst light you can. It's amateur.

Lopen posted...

You did? Where? Post 216? A bunch of nothing in that one. Let me boil it down minus purple monkey dishwasher because that was funny but also distracting to the lack of a point to the post.

"Lopen makes convincing arguments but may do that as town or scum" (okay so you're saying I could be town or scum, great)
"Lopen had a particularly good argument towards red being scum" (I agree I did but how could I make a good argument with only 1/4 of a day of content)
"I was getting vibes to a particularly good argument" (WHERE?)
"I don't know if that's different from how Lopen plays but now Lopen is town" (WHY? I thought I was scared tho!)

Let's not dumb me thinking Han is scum to flipping whether I was scared or suspicious in 3 minutes though either.

There are other reasons detailed in my reaction to his post 216. He.

1. Claims I am playing similarly to baseball mafia when I had a strong argument against red when I was on Kirby and hadn't really built any argument whatsoever on Kirby
2. Says he doesn't know if that's indicative of alignment.

He also didn't really go after red or sbell despite those being other people he had his eyes on to start with. And believe me I tried to get him to elaborate on red but he claimed it didn't need elaboration and I was too dumb to understand why it didn't.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

SBell, all you're doing is taking what I've said and twisting it to put me in the worst light you can. It's amateur.

Says the guy who has misquoted me, TWICE.

htaeD posted...

That said his scumgame in the last role madness was more of a 'going with the tide' kinda player. So I do think Lopen is likelier to be town here.

This is a good point. I remember being floored when Lopen was revealed to be scum last game. I didn't suspect him at all since he was rather nonchalant.

Also, I like ctes sticking with his guns and grilling Lea. I still think Lea is town, but I did point out earlier that her immediately jumping to same-time claim instead of just saying she had a modifier came as defensive. That being said, I don't think Scum would try to drive that particular point home in an attempt to shift the lynch to Lea (who everyone thought looked much better than me during the initial counter claim).

I'm also not getting the same vibes from Lea as in Star Wars/Pokmon Mafia, where she was scum.

In summary, I think Lea and ctes are town, and I lean town on Death as well. Lopen I'm still a little uneasy on, but I'm not as sure of him being scum.

And as for Han... I'm gonna need some more data, though I'm leaning scum on him as usual.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Alright. Then now that we're considering it all again, you still believing Kirby?

ctesjbuvf posted...

I guess I shouldn't complain that I'm being ignored while not having a vote down so

##vote: Lea

Trust Kirby more after that, though I'm not convinced you aren't both scum and tried to set that up.

have to admit thought crossed my mind when lea backed down her read on kirby but doesn't feel likely at all

Obellisk posted...

Says the guy who has misquoted me, TWICE.

I admitted when I misread what you said, and I corrected on it. If that's not good enough for you, then you need to admit either A. You're Scum or B. You're not actually interested in discussing with me my results, but just in painting them in the worst light you can.

I am going to put this simply one more time before I try to focus on work here:
I recall Lea buddying me. This may be based on games when we're both Town. This may be based on games where only she is playing as Town and I'm observing. This may be based on games where neither of us are playing. But either way, I do recall (maybe incorrectly so!) that as Town/Town, we are on the same page. This is what I recall. Either way, there is no gotcha to be had here. Sometimes, honesty is imperfect. If you expect me to list 10 examples of games where Lea and I are Town/Town and 10 where we're not, then you're silly.

For Lopen:
When I say you're playing similarly to purple monkey mafia, it's a generalization based on two pages this game compared to some 20 pages in the other. And when I say it's NAI, that's me coming around to saying that maybe the similarities I'm seeing are just things you do. If you ARE Town, then that means that I am adjusting my viewpoint to arrive at the correct one.

As for Red, his first page of posts this game were telling Sultan that he shouldn't host if he states he won't put Millers in his games. That is posting to get posts in the topic, but not talking about the actual game going on. Is that clear enough for you?

Hbthebattle posted...

Yeah, going to be honest, not that big of a fan of the Han train right now. While it's true he's not as obvtown as he was instantly in Baseball Musical, he hasn't done anything especially scummy? My gut feeling is this is an attempt to get rid of a strong player early, at least with Kirby's vote.

i don't like this post.

##Unvote
##Vote: Hbthebattle

didn't like han's response to pressure but the more he argument goes on the more uncertain i am