Board 8 > Eff 2021 Mafia: Topic 5 - Starting The New Year Off With A Little Coup

(+) Yeah! (+)

HanOfTheNekos posted...

MZero, it's your job to convince me why this BCT is different from previous Town BCT

He isn't.

I'm out later.

MZero posted...

:(

oh alright.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

MZero, it's your job to convince me why this BCT is different from previous Town BCT

I actually don't think I've ever played with town BCT, and if I have I don't remember

Chaeix posted...

I think youre correct to acknowledge ctes mentioned that he thought Ben had been worse all day but I interpret that specific post overall to be inconsistent between its thought and action, which unsettles me. He always has a chance to explain whenever europe allows him, and his explanation may satisfy

What? I thought you said he said Isquen was Scummy all day.

Was he focused on Ben all day, or Isquen?

Actually, I think BCT was scum in that game I couldn't mayor to save you because I was at work, and you nailed him being scum based on his first post and he ended up winning in endgame

you should understand my plight, Han!

I'm a bit torn, I do not think it would be optimal play to say all this in Ben's case, he wasn't pushed that hard yet, he didn't actually wait for Isquen's answer, though he did attempt to for a while but i also really don't see the lie here. If Isquen is town he simply says he's exactly what he claimed and Ben is doomed for what? Suiciding into a day vig day 1?. It's why I initially went to Isquen being non-town and Ben scum day role cop, as has been repeated by others since, because it's the setup in which Ben's actions make sense to me. If Isquen is town I really doubt Ben is scum. Isquen scum and Ben town is possible, though it still requires a non-town Isquen to have made that counterclaim to Scare. Both could be also be town, I'm not finding that too likely. Isquen seems like the go to choice because the setups with him as non-town seem more likely and then we're also not lynching a very good role. However, I could more easily see Ben do crazy play like this and I also thought he looked more off before the claims, so ultimately I'll let my vote stay where it is and go with the more gut feel. I fall asleep now.

This is where he says all the things I am referencing. Isquen is the go to choice. Ben looked more off before the claims. But then he went with his gut.

Why would Scum go with their gut on Ben instead of confirmed Town Isquen? What's the Scum equity there?

Do you think he may be went with feeling instead of logic?

MZero posted...

Actually, I think BCT was scum in that game I couldn't mayor to save you because I was at work, and you nailed him being scum based on his first post and he ended up winning in endgame

you should understand my plight, Han!

BCT was obvscum that game because he pretended to not know how day 1's go.

And BCT has been Town in like every other game - did you really miss them all?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

BCT was obvscum that game because he pretended to not know how day 1's go.

And BCT has been Town in like every other game - did you really miss them all?

Yeah from the looks of it that was the only game we were both in

I will go on the record and say that it's perfectly possible that Scare and Ben and BCT are all Scum. Totally possible.

I think Scare/Ben as Scumpair is rather unlikely though.

And this still leaves room for more Scum and I'd rather look there, since I can come up with reasons that I feel these three are Town.

I would rather see someone use "Scare and Ben are Scum" or "BCT is Scum" and use that as an argument to explain why Death or whomever is Scum. That sort of linkage would work my mental gears more right now.

Do that for me Corrik, and I'll spend some time really trying to put myself in your shoes concerning Scare and Ben tomorrow.

BlueCrystalTear posted... You know what? I am ALWAYS, ALWAYS suspected of being scum on Day 1 because I have next to no Mafia experience, and I am fucking tired of that.

Here he is playing the newbie card as in Nickelodeon mafia

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I would rather see someone use "Scare and Ben are Scum" or "BCT is Scum" and use that as an argument to explain why Death or whomever is Scum. That sort of linkage would work my mental gears more right now.

When BCT made his first catch-up post, he said

I don't like how defensive and facetious Ben is being right now either. But I really don't know what to make of it.

at this point, ben was getting heat and it kind of looks like he was positioning himself to jump on if necessary, but didn't want to commit

Then when he came back from thinking he was modkilled, he said

Why would I kill Lopen when Lopen was blatantly town? You're going up my suspect list, Lea.

Scare dayvigging Lopen also is interesting in all the wrong ways. Lopen was freaking TOWN. And the fact that it happened during a STOP makes me think there's some funny business with that role.

Current top suspects in no specific order:
Ben
chang
Lea
MZero
SBell
Scare

BlueCrystalTear posted...

Ben because what little I've seen reminds me of his scum style of play. Don't ask.

His read flips from "I don't know what to make of it" to scum with no justification. At this point, ben wasn't the hot topic anymore. When pressed on it, he gives a vague answer and says "don't ask". He never answered me when I asked why he went from neutral to scum on ben (other than asking when he had a neutral read). I believe SBell was never answered when asked for elaboration on the Ben read either.

Ben is scum with BCT, There you go.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Why would Scum go with their gut on Ben instead of confirmed Town Isquen? What's the Scum equity there?

Do you think he may be went with feeling instead of logic?

I don't know if I follow the question but this might answer it? I am currently in the one of Ben/Scare is scum camp, not both. I also don't think ctes and Ben are both scum but it's not impossible. If ctes is scum, especially if Scare is his scumbuddy, then they are probably assuming a reasonable chance that Isquen is town. Avoiding a mislynch is never a bad thing as far as scum equity goes.

And yes I agree he went with feeling but I think that's answered by my prior comments that it seems weird that he went with feeling in the fact of all the logic he just shared.

Hm I suppose by my own logic he's not avoiding a mislynch either way given I don't think ctes and Ben scumbuddies. So not much scum equity really. You got me there.

Haven't caught up yet

But I will have you know Bens made me angry by betraying my trust in him.
Taking his claim back in a convenient way to give himself an out when Isquen flipped town. He did exactly what I did not want him to do.
Though since he knew about Arsonist existing that part of his role is at least the truth this time?
I was also surprised when I read through the end of day1 and not once did I see him explain his impatience as a result of people like me asking him to reveal his 'info'. As if he didn't (want to) notice the pressure on him.
I really dont like Sultan being the hammer on Isquen with 11 minutes to go.

Nevertheless logic is telling me to set that anger aside and to lynch Scare instead. Because while I cant see scum shooting Lopen, I cant see town having two dayvigs even less with an SK in play as well. I was okay with letting it go while I thought Isquen could just shoot Scare. But now that would be up to us.

I do wonder about Scare/Ben being scum together
Ben pointing fingers at Isquen just would make Scare and him look worse the next day, when Scare was off pretty well day1 (and in Bens case it already got him more suspicion on day1). Maybe he wanted to get Isquen killed before he could kill Scare?
But scum apparently has a roleblocker (I mean, when dont they?) so they always had the power to stop Isquen if they needed to.
I see Han is feeling the same way about Ben (at least in topic 4)

Changmas' bluff against Sbell was as he admitted not that helpful. (Personally I would have tried Sultan instead)
Though its a random act that I dont see any scum make out of nowhere and Sbell did react nicely regardless.
On the other hand I dont think Chang needed to claim that he knew he was RBed as well.
Though maybe he bluffed about being RBed as well to get more reads. Because I certainly find Corriks reaction of a vote interesting already. He didn't even seem to consider that possibility and went straight for the jugular.

Minor interlude: All this talk about timing of Stops and what not (which I still find questionable on Scare's part)
Makes me wonder what happens if BCT makes a vote but Suprak the host is not on time to place it
I assumed it gets added retroactively and we just have to imagine its there.
Not that I think BCT could lie and pretend he sent in a vote because that would be obvious when Suprak fails to post a vote eventually.

Minor interlude 2: I miss red already. He would be here with me around this time :(

I'm here for you death

Nice.

Okay I cant read very quickly at work so I will just ask you.

Did anyone comment on this post (# 283) from BCT yet? (including BCT himself?)

My role is as I described, and since we killed the likely only anti-town Independent (given just how much damage that role can do), the only way I wouldn't be town is if I had some other win condition. Which I do not.

I know Lea joked about town killing the arsonist after all, but this does not seem to flow from that.

Oh I didn't even noticed that. No I don't think anyone has commented on that. That would be a pretty funny slip though

Yeah its not enough by itself, but something about BCT overall feels forced the more he posts.

My god, you are just like Sultan last game. Please stop being blatant scum.

Now the jury is out on you (though I do like your level headed answers to BCT), but Sultan was town in that last game.
I'd like to think that BCT would know by now that town can suspect/tunnel him just as easily as scum. But he is still using it to motivate his scumreads.
A lot of BCT's posts after this point just sound illogical too.
Though before I conclude anything about that, I want to ask him some questions:

BCT what do you think gut means? And slips?

Also interesting that he specified anti-town independent

I had to check if I missed something there, but no he still calls himself town.

yeah not really sure what to make of it, but it stuck out as weird

masterplum posted...

(If isquen is town we have to kill scare)

hey plum why aren't you on scare?

Sultan being confused about the Suprak slot on page 1 tells me he's not scum with BCT, or he's a brilliant actor

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I will say that I don't think we should go for BCT rn.

ThisThisThis

Got through topic 4 but this is bothering me a ton

Does anybody in this entire game really think scum BCT is going to fake not critical thinking to understand why Ben would think their is an arsonist? That is way harder to do then it looks. As far as I am aware BCTs scum play is not nearly that tactical.

Han has been on fire. His thoughts have been excellent. This slightly worries me and I think he is in a Sir Chris style untouchable until lylo situation for me. At that point Ill worry but for now almost everything he has said has gotten vigorous nodding.

Bct saying two town vigs were impossible made me roll my eyes hard. This game already has shown itself to be off the wall. I am leaning scare scum but there are a lot of big question marks with that. It is based almost purely on role meta and with an arsonist that is a dangerous place to be, Scare is currently 3rd or so on my scum list but that is still in the murky area.

MZero posted...

hey plum why aren't you on scare?

Arsonist flip. Both makes Ben hunting for the third party as scum way more likely and sends up a big flag that this is a weird setup and just assuming two town day vigs is impossible isnt a good idea.

I'll repeat my thought from Day 1 that the double voter is likely a 3rd party.

Red flipping 3rd party doesn't change that theory

BCT being do adamant that TWO 3rd parties can't exist just further fuels my theory.

masterplum posted...

Does anybody in this entire game really think scum BCT is going to fake not critical thinking to understand why Ben would think their is an arsonist?

Why does it have to be faked to be scum?

masterplum posted...

Arsonist flip. Both makes Ben hunting for the third party as scum way more likely and sends up a big flag that this is a weird setup and just assuming two town day vigs is impossible isnt a good idea.

so you didn't think two town vigs was possible but another killing role changed your mind? >_>

masterplum posted...

Does anybody in this entire game really think scum BCT is going to fake not critical thinking to understand why Ben would think their is an arsonist? That is way harder to do then it looks. As far as I am aware BCTs scum play is not nearly that tactical.

BCT won an entire game by playing up to his newbiness. He's difnitely capable of feigning ignorance

MZero posted...

so you didn't think two town vigs was possible but another killing role changed your mind? >_>

This is a weird post.

Scare already killed so the number of killing roles hasnt changed. They exist, and arsonist can wildly unbalance a game. We are already in the realm of throwing meta out of the window here.

Obellisk posted...

Why does it have to be faked to be scum?

BCT was active as scum on his team boards was he not? Bens status as fire proof would have influenced the decision of who to kill

masterplum posted...

Han has been on fire. His thoughts have been excellent

Han had a frustrated outburst (I didn't read it so I don't really know why but I saw it had to do with corrik) and had to apologize to open day 2 and since then has been posting like a pacifist. He also spent most of day 1 pushing isquen being scum even though multiple people (myself included) shared thoughts that showed isquen has no scum equity in his actions.

I don't see the fire you speak of.

masterplum posted...

This is a weird post.

Scare already killed so the number of killing roles hasnt changed. They exist, and arsonist can wildly unbalance a game. We are already in the realm of throwing meta out of the window here.

Yes Scare was the one confirmed killing role yesterday, then Isquen and red flipped, bringing the total to 3. You just said the arsonist flip is what changed your mind, i.e. another killing role existing

you're saying you didn't believe two town day vigs could exist, but the existence of another killing role (Arsonist) changed your mind

I have never played with BCT before but I have to say the more this schtick of his goes on the less I think he's town.

I think his role is the only thing still giving me pause.

I've been trying to think about if town/scum could both have a fireproof, so both sides have a protection from the arsonist. If so, then Ben claiming fireproof and not being counterclaimed would make him the town version of the role. But I can't land on if I think this is likely or if there's just one fireproof. And if there's just one fireproof, which side it would be more likely to be.

MZero can you clarify why you don't think Ben/Ctes is scum/scum?

Maybe scum has a flat out untargetable or unkillable role? To counter both Isquen, Red and Scare? (though I still think Scare has a good chance of just being scum)

I dont think scum would counterclaim here if Ben is town regardless, because we'd just lynch the counter after Ben.

TotallyNotMI posted...

MZero can you clarify why you don't think Ben/Ctes is scum/scum?

In the immortal words of Shaggy

It wasn't me

Oops. No wonder I wasn't finding that post to quote when I was iso'ing you looking for it.

Note to self don't read ~200 posts while lying on my son's floor putting him back to bed early in the morning you don't retain anything.

Chaeix posted...

Hm I suppose by my own logic he's not avoiding a mislynch either way given I don't think ctes and Ben scumbuddies. So not much scum equity really. You got me there.

JC can you elaborate why you don't think ctes/Ben are scummates?

MZero, do you think ctes/Ben could be scummates?

htaeD posted...

Maybe scum has a flat out untargetable or unkillable role? To counter both Isquen, Red and Scare? (though I still think Scare has a good chance of just being scum)

I dont think scum would counterclaim here if Ben is town regardless, because we'd just lynch the counter after Ben.

Right. If both teams have a counter, no counterclaim on Ben would imply he's the town counter. But that's a big if right now.

TotallyNotMI posted...

MZero, do you think ctes/Ben could be scummates?

I don't have any reason to believe they can't be. I did say I don't think ben/Scare is scum/scum

Looking back at Ctes I can think of one reason why Ctes wouldn't be scum with Ben.
Could be the same reason as JC since its a pretty simple one. But I will let JC answer first.

HanOfTheNekos posted...
SULTAN

Is this BCT like last game's, to you?

Not really, I'm not sure what to make of BCT here. Like It seems like he is trying a bit more then the last 2 town game he had but at the same time does it seem forced?

Tbh when he flat out said I was town he basically used Sbell's argument but tried to change the wording? If I remember correctly.

I am caught up on a double voting being a scum role though. I wanted to use it in a game but felt like it create all kinds of imbalance.

I was okay to think ah maybe like a survivor 3rd party but we just caught and had an arsonist that was independent.

im still leaning BCT is just not good at being town yet.

BCT question can you double vote everyday or is it limited?

Wrong topic you played alot last night ill catch up more I. A bit

htaeD posted...

Maybe scum has a flat out untargetable or unkillable role? To counter both Isquen, Red and Scare? (though I still think Scare has a good chance of just being scum)

I dont think scum would counterclaim here if Ben is town regardless, because we'd just lynch the counter after Ben.

It's also possible town has an untargetable so they wouldn't have countered ben

Obellisk posted...

BCT, please list your top 5 scum suspects as things currently stand before disappearing for most of day 2.

Still the same five.

1. Scare - Is scum.
2. Corrik - Is acting differently
3. Ben - Still don't like the unnecessary scan bluff. Why use it D1 on Isquen?
4. MZero - Is doing nothing meaningful or helpful and only seeks to lynch one townie. It's laser-focused on beating me and not winning the game for town, so his goal is winning the game for scum.
5. Death - need to look deeper but I won't have that kind of time today.

Have catching up to do...

Also I apologize for confusing wording. I messed up again, for some reason saying "we" as in "the game/players."

I'm not scum. I swear. If you lynch me, please kill MZero next.