Board 8 > Eff 2021 Mafia: Topic 9 - The Year Not Even Betty White Could Escape

(+) Yeah! (+)

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Still not sure how we can't have MI/Lea and Corrik coexist?

We also aren't sure if we even have a cop in this game? Like corrik is basically the cop and if Lea and MI are Mason's we got what 4 confirmed townish?

Also could see a world where corrik is actually cop and claimed this weird varient for some reason

Both confirmed their role pm says they have an action before everyone else gets their role.

That doesnt work

Maybe they did get their action at the same time, they just got different players on their lists?
Though I hadnt considered the cop/scanner angle yeah.
I dont think they fill the same niche, but they do overlap in balance.
I would rather have scanners than multiple veto roles too.

htaeD posted...

Maybe they did get their action at the same time, they just got different players on their lists?
Though I hadnt considered the cop/scanner angle yeah.
I dont think they fill the same niche, but they do overlap in balance.
I would rather have scanners than multiple veto roles too.

If they got their actions at the same time then Corrik getting MI on his list doesnt make sense, so hed at least have to be lying about that

Chaeix posted...

If they got their actions at the same time then Corrik getting MI on his list doesnt make sense, so hed at least have to be lying about that

This is why I voted Corrik (Suprak hasn't posted it yet). Something just doesn't seem right about Corrik's story. I do believe the list to be truthful, but what it's for to be a lie.

I was saving this vote for later because I didn't want it at -1 so soon.

Not that anyone care but I think we are making a mistake

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Not that anyone care but I think we are making a mistake

I care.

I'd also like to remind the game that the rules did say not to discuss receipt timing of roles. I think this plays a lot into the fact that both Corrik and MI received pregame correspondence regarding roles that assist with the design of the game.

Of course neither could know additional players were receiving the same "abilities" to change the course of the game, so they'd have to be told that they are the very first person to receive anything.

So maybe we shouldn't be striking Corrik out based on that.

You should probably warn when you're placing a vote, because it could be -1 before we know it.

##unvote

I was already on corrik. but I do t want any unnecessary early hammers.

Okay so here's where I'm at now.

The point that most people seem stuck on is that the claims are "mutually exclusive". But the logic that I feel like people are using to support this has already accepted the premise that both roles exist in some capacity which means they aren't really mutually exclusive.

Both players seemingly reported different details which applied to both players' supposed PMs. For example, Corrik first reported the " choose 3 different states" thing which lead to 6 different players, which was basically the same method that MI reported later with choosing between the 4 women's names which lead to a group of 4 players.

This to me suggests that both players really did receive pre-game PMs allowing them to change the player set-up in some way. Setting alignments aside for the moment; therefore, the claims are NOT mutually exclusive. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that Corrik essentially just guessed essential details in the private PM as a complete hail mary in response to MI and Lea's claim. This, to me, is untenable. The only other option here is that Corrik had knowledge in advance of the role AND the private PM which either suggests he also got one or scum has a really, really powerful role cop that can see literally everything about the role.

If you want to argue that one of these two players didn't receive a pre-game PM, you have to convince me that one of them either A) guessed essential details about the role or B) assume they are colluding together (i.e. both scum). Otherwise, you've already admitted you believe that both players received a pre-game PM in some capacity.

As for how that relates to the reported "no other roles/alignments have been randomized yet" line, I don't really have a satisfactory answer to that. The host made a mistake for all I know. To me, that line doesn't really factor heavily unless you can figure out which of the two players didn't actually receive a pre-game PM. Because that contradiction doesn't magically get fixed if "Corrik had the pre-game role but picked scum / was scum only". It only gets fixed if one of the two players is either lying about that line or is lying about being a pre-game setup role at all.

so ultimately i REJECT the argument that the roles are mutually exclusive.

still ruminating on how alignments factor in here though, that will be coming at some point in the next few hours idk might need dinner first

tl;dr kill ben, he could be gigabusted OP scum day role cop :)

Obellisk posted...

Of course neither could know additional players were receiving the same "abilities" to change the course of the game, so they'd have to be told that they are the very first person to receive anything.

yeah this is possible as well, it could have been intentional on the part of the host so as not to hint that anyone else could be receiving a similar role and didn't anticipate the consequences reaching so far into the game in this way

oh also a slight correction it doesn't have to be corrik with advance knowledge of the role / incoming claim, it could be MI / Lea with advance knowledge of Corrik's role as well and jumping out ahead of him. that's also a possibility

changmas posted...

yeah this is possible as well, it could have been intentional on the part of the host so as not to hint that anyone else could be receiving a similar role and didn't anticipate the consequences reaching so far into the game in this way

BUT Suprak could have just not said that at all to either player and the same result occurs.

So by saying it once he's forced to say it twice and he creates this fiasco and it since it seems so avoidable... maybe we have a liar.

sure, but who's the liar and how did they guess details that couldn't be known without seeing the PM?

changmas posted...

sure, but who's the liar and how did they guess details that couldn't be known without seeing the PM?

no I agree with your argument that they both exist. I do not believe either shined knowledge unrelated to their personal role pm.

Obellisk posted...

BUT Suprak could have just not said that at all to either player and the same result occurs.

So by saying it once he's forced to say it twice and he creates this fiasco and it since it seems so avoidable... maybe we have a liar.

this is why I think the lie is MI being on Corriks list. I think they both got PMs but the only way anything makes sense in that case is if their respective roles were locked in.

One thing I do want to confirm with MI

does your role explicitly say that it makes your choice TOWN mason?

If were assuming two roles with PMs exist, it doesnt make sense that one role guarantees someone town (MI) and one guarantees scum (Corrik)

also what would happen hypothetically if they both picked the same person? would Suprak have two roles that could be an unstoppable force meets an immovable object kinda deal? or would they resolve?

Yeah I feel we already agreed with what you said, chang

No big deal that the only player in the game that is confirmed town to me just got shot - No mafia player ever

yeah but that was everyone's justification for why we had to do this today and not kill ben who is more scummy imo.

ultimately though i guess i just buy corrik saying he wanted to have some fun seeing what town lopen would come up with this time. he was interacting with lopen a bunch on day 1 so it kinda does track. he would've had to have been planning this for a while to really set it in motion like that. that doesn't really feel that fake to me honestly.

masterplum posted...

No big deal that the only player in the game that is confirmed town to me just got shot - No mafia player ever

how would you react / how do you think he's supposed to react? it's not like you can just be like "oh yeah i knew he was town all along btw". my only reaction would just be like "welp that fucking sucks, my whole role is basically useless now"

and of course i wouldn't post that, thats just what i'd be thinking in my head

I did check and I did find a post on day2 that implied Corrik wanted to get Lopen on his side. But that was day2.
Ultimately I just cant square this with the balancing and the MI thing.

I kinda thought Chang would go a little harder. I think it is clear Corrik had the same message MI got in his role PM, and I believe they received their roles at the same time. What that tells me though is that MI should not be in Corrik's list.

Also when I asked Corrik if he considered anyone else other than Lopen, I was eppecting more details about his thought process and why he thought Lopen was a better choice than anyone else on his list to be town.

Instead he just responded, "I considered everyone"

Add to that Corrik thinks Lopen is bad at being town......

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I mean, if Bens scum theres a good chance hes still fireproof and is effectively a vanilla at this point. Corrik throwing Ben under the bus does make some amount of sense, especially if hes reading the room as already being unfriendly to Ben. If he already knew Ben was scum and was a target, why stay on a sinking ship?

People have been more friendly to me than I deserve this game. That said, I'm pretty sure I am like the first person Corrik ever went after. Never forget HE LIED ABOUT LEAVING THE SUPRAK SLOT ALONE EVEN IF IT IS SCUM

PunishedBen posted...

Add to that Corrik thinks Lopen is bad at being town......

"Bad but fun." I think he said.

Mind you I think Lopen is fun. But his townplay can make one pull out hairs.

changmas posted...

yeah but that was everyone's justification for why we had to do this today and not kill ben who is more scummy imo.

ultimately though i guess i just buy corrik saying he wanted to have some fun seeing what town lopen would come up with this time. he was interacting with lopen a bunch on day 1 so it kinda does track. he would've had to have been planning this for a while to really set it in motion like that. that doesn't really feel that fake to me honestly.

how would you react / how do you think he's supposed to react? it's not like you can just be like "oh yeah i knew he was town all along btw". my only reaction would just be like "welp that fucking sucks, my whole role is basically useless now"

Not act indifferent?

If I had that role I would probably strongly indicate how much I disagreed with the shot because I would know it would come up later when I eventually claimed

I've been back and fourth on my thoughts alot, distracted by a World Cup final. Ithink it's more distracting than useful all these technicalities about these claims and you can find arguments for both. If Corrik is actually such a specific role but as scum then it's a major setup trap to have another role like that as town and use that wording. Both clearly have roles like this and something sounds off in the roles. But one side has two people arguing its case while Lopen left alive wouldn't even be able to help Corrik out here. I think everyone should consider how much of a trap this would be. On a scum team that already shared a role (well, part of it) with a town member in the vigs.

Setup meta aside, Corrik hasn't looked that great today but I don't think MI or Lea has looked that great either. Before today Corrik probably looked better while MI and Lea have seemed lazy at times. Even today Corrik has at least made an effort to try to figure out the whole game.

Hmm, I wish I was doubting myself less and not risk staying up until 4am again.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I mean, why not?

if theyre scumbuddies Corrik would know that Ben had, at the very least, a claim that town probably wouldnt lynch at face value despite any potential shenanigans.

Then what he did onwards was just the result of how the game flowed.

And thats not to say I necessarily prescribe to that logic, its more just having a discussion about the conclusions being drawn.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I am sorry. You still have the funniest player award!

I just realized I was about to lynch Corrik for reasons that wasn't just his play and then thought of something that also had nothing to do with play that spoke against Corrik being scum and before today I felt better about Corrik than you two.

Now inb4 there are three aligned people fooling everybody right now lol.

I have 20-30 mins left before my flight is finally de-iced then Ill probably miss the lynch while Im in the air :(

i dont feel emotionally prepared to vote here

Chaeix posted...

I have 20-30 mins left before my flight is finally de-iced then Ill probably miss the lynch while Im in the air :(

i dont feel emotionally prepared to vote here

Now you know how I felt at EOD!

I still haven't voted, myself. The Suprak account has.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

youre grounded

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Chaeix posted...

youre grounded

LOL I'M DYING

Question for all: So is there a possibility that both Ben and Corrik are scum? I'm wondering if that's possible and there have been smokescreens everywhere.

I don't see why not.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

LOL I'M DYING

Question for all: So is there a possibility that both Ben and Corrik are scum? I'm wondering if that's possible and there have been smokescreens everywhere.

Yes, my entire argument yesterday was Corriks train on Ben D1 was weird as hell

#FreeVOTALs:
[5] Corrik - (MI), MI, (Sbell), plum, Lea, Corrik, Suprak(?)
[2] Ben - Chang, (Lea), Sultan, (Corrik)
[2] Death - MI, Ben
[0] Sbell - (Chaeix), (Lea)
[0] MI - Corrik
[0] plum - (Sultan), (Sbell)
[0] Chaeix - (plum)
[0] BCT - (Sbell), (Sbell)

Yeah I am just gonna face the facts that I cant get much more done today.
I see less reason to doubt MI and Lea in the end and not enough to think Corrik cant be scum.

That said, I also dont think I need to put it at -2. Unless there is a willing unvoting samaritan somewhere.

You have MI there twice.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

LOL I'M DYING

Question for all: So is there a possibility that both Ben and Corrik are scum? I'm wondering if that's possible and there have been smokescreens everywhere.

Its possible.
Less possible if Corrik is like a strong role like scum roleblocker or something and Ben is merely their fireproof. Corrik probably does at least have the same power as MI based on how well he worded himself, but who knows what else.

Chaeix posted...

does your role explicitly say that it makes your choice TOWN mason?

Yes.

i will echo ctes thoughts that this situation is particularly difficult given that Corrik has been coming across as playing very town. The amount of effort hes put into trying to figure out the setup is fairly impressive.

that being said he has been remarkably stubborn about certain things. like he is confident enough in Scare being the reason for the STOP to the point that he just declared SBell town.

but being bullheaded is just in Corriks nature anyways soooo