Board 8 > noob questions about souls/etc games

(+) Yeah! (+)

freakin everybody loves them but I just never got the memo I guess

-Is loot set or randomized?
-How much story is there? I know it has SOME but pretty much every time I've watched somebody play it's two lines of dialogue followed by three hours repeatedly dying to some giant guy with a sword.
-What would you say is the main appeal? The challenge? Making builds? Settings? I've watched a ton because a lot of my favorite streamers are really into the series, but it just doesn't click for me for whatever reason.

AriaOfBolo posted...

-Is loot set or randomized?

Loot is pretty much set, although enemies have the chance of dropping several different items

-How much story is there? I know it has SOME but pretty much every time I've watched somebody play it's two lines of dialogue followed by three hours repeatedly dying to some giant guy with a sword.

A LOT if you read into it and it's really good. It's mostly through environmental storytelling and item descriptions, but the fanbase has compiled most of the lore online. So it's not hard to find if you're curious about a particular area or character.

-What would you say is the main appeal? The challenge? Making builds? Settings?

All of the above.

Each game has different strengths and weaknesses. Bloodborne might have the best lore, but Sekiro wins combat, Elden Ring has the best sense of discovery, etc.

The story is very interesting in those games, because there's VERY little given to you in cutscenes or standard dialogue like in most games. Instead it's subtly layered all around you, in things like the environmental design, the item descriptions, the little seeds of background information from NPC dialogue, and is only really apparent when you pay attention and connect the dots. This means it's easy to miss, and isn't impactful for every player, but personally when I played I had a lot of really compelling moments when I pieced things together sometimes.

You cannot pause these games. There's no excuse good enough to omit such a basic function. So unless you can guarantee no interruptions for the entirety of your play session, then say goodbye to progress occasionally

Cavedweller2000 posted...

You cannot pause these games. There's no excuse good enough to omit such a basic function. So unless you can guarantee no interruptions for the entirety of your play session, then say goodbye to progress occasionally

^If you decide to start playing souls games, dont be this guy lol

You can often easily hide your character somewhere if you need to pause

every single time i hear anybody describe why they like these games i am put off them more

it's been over a decade of these games and somehow "you can't pause, you'll lose your progress!" is still the best indicator of who has never actually played any of the games

Lol no kidding. Honestly anybody can get into Fromsoft games if they're patient and willing to learn. This may not work for everyone, but I keep notes when I play. This boss in this location is too hard right now - here's what works and what doesn't work. An NPC just name dropped this random weird terminology - better jot that down for later.

Then when a new game drops, and everyone in the community is all working together to figure out everything - just nothing else like it man.

You can save and quit anywhere anyway, so if you REALLY need to put the game away for a moment or so there's no reason not to do that.

Not being able to pause even when you aren't playing online is definitely the straight up dumbest minor decision Souls games insist on making for no reason.

My first FROM game was Elden Ring prior to that game I was never a fan of this type of game. Elden Ring was amazing and I would go back and play the Souls games if I thought I could handle the de-evolution of controls/graphics/etc.

With all that said, I never found not being able to "pause" my game an issue ever. There are a million places in the world you can just stand still and nothing will happen to you.

TomNook7 posted...

^If you decide to start playing souls games, dont be this guy lol

You can often easily hide your character somewhere if you need to pause

^ Can you give me a good reason why the pause function doesn't exist in Offline mode then?

I'm not bashing on the game at all, I bought Bloodborne as I really liked the look of it, and it's probably amazing. But alas I'll never know because I often unexpectedly get interrupted (the joy of having kids) meaning that I can't "find a place to easily hide".

Also you say "don't be this guy" as if my complaint is beyond the realms of understanding. If you can cope without pausing then more power to you, but don't assume everyone is in the same position as you. I'm only asking for something that has been included in 99.999% of Offline games since the late 80s

the games have more downtime than almost any other game. that's kind of the whole point

I don't think I even quit out of elden ring until I beat it, it was just constantly running and minimized when I wasn't playing it

Cavedweller2000 posted...

^ Can you give me a good reason why the pause function doesn't exist then?

I'm not bashing on the game at all, I bought Bloodborne as I really liked the look of it, and it's probably amazing. But alas I'll never know because I often unexpectedly get interrupted (the joy of having kids) meaning that I can't "find a place to easily hide".

just play it

Aecioo posted...

just play it

I have, I got up to Father Gascoigne. At which point, after many deaths due to the aforementioned interruptions, I turned it off and never played it again

These games arent for everyone

I barely played DS1 but found not being able to pause to be an instant turn-off. I expected hard from the game and series, but I didn't expect it to be tense in like the scary sense and I have a low threshold for that in video games. Not being able to pause to minimize that feeling was too much and I think it's a weird design choice anyway, so I dropped out of it early.

Dark Souls is cool to many people! Just not gonna be a game for me. I recommend trying it on sale sometime to see if it's your speed or not -- seen plenty of parents enjoy the series too.

Not being able to pause is obviously not an issue until it is.

stop trying to defend it. Games are fine despite that

TomNook7 posted...

These games arent for everyone

That'd be a fair point if what I was talking about was the difficulty or something relating to the gameplay itself. What you're actually saying is FromSoftware made sure these games aren't for everyone.

And you still haven't given me a reason why they chose to do this.

Colegreen_c12 posted...

Not being able to pause is obviously not an issue until it is.

stop trying to defend it. Games are fine despite that

You hit the nail on the head

I get why people don't like the lack of pause but it just doesn't bother me at all.

Guess what I do if I'm interrupted? I get up and handle it. Maybe I die, whatever. It never really means much to lose progress in these games and more often then not you can get back to where you were pretty quickly.

I never got into these games, but gave Elden Ring a shot and loved it.

Much of the loot is not random, but enemies do have random drops. There is story... but it's not a conventional narrative beat to beat format.

The appeal - for me I like open world games. Elden Ring has great exploration. I don't really love challenging games. Elden Ring has some difficult bosses but you can always level up, power up, improve your gear, etc. You can use broken builds, cheese skills, summons, etc. Streamers tend to go without summons and when they hit a boss, they wont quit until they win. No one wants to watch a streamer use Rot Breath on a boss and ride around in circles while it slowly dies :)

I'll also say that Elden Ring has a great opening segment - the tutorial cave is helpful and then the first stretch with an enemy camp helps you build up some basic skills and gauging/understanding enemies.

(actually the reason I got the game was the Joel Haver "chest high wall" video)

The main form of progression in souls games is experience, not character stats. Losing some souls because you tabbed out isn't a big deal at all. You could also just like... walk back 20 feet? Or, usually, you don't even need to move at all. It's so easy to circumvent the lack of pause.

The reason Souls has become so celebrated is because it throws out traditional gaming conventions (like pausing, difficulty settings, etc.)

It's certainly not a franchise for everyone, because these games are less about "having fun" and more about going on a journey and facing challenges that you simply won't get in other games.

These games are popular for a reason, anyone claiming that these games are bad are completely missing the point of what FromSoft is doing. If the games aren't for you that's fine, but that hardly makes them bad games.

I know these are great games that people love but...
Steiner posted...

every single time i hear anybody describe why they like these games i am put off them more

BetrayedTangy posted...

these games are less about "having fun"

ah

My love for the games has often boiled down to knowledge and execution being prized over stats, while still rewarding players for stats and builds

Steiner posted...

ah

Well at that's the other half of it. The difficulty curve is amazing. As you get better and continue to learn the game, you start having more fun. So by the time you reach NG+ the entire game just turns into a huge power trip as you blitz through areas the kicked your ass the first time through.

Might not be for you, but that's why the games are so celebrated.

Is going on a journey and facing new challenges not fun?

I love Souls games but feel like half of what I hear about them from other players are self-created situations. Every game in the series has a system for summoning other players to help. Yet people act like ignoring this entire system is the only real way to play, which is bonkers. While none of these games have a direct difficulty system, there are several ways of mitigating that difficulty.

It's a series where you can largely create your own pace. For me, the best part is the thrill of methodically exploring foreboding new locations. One wrong move could get you killed, sure, but it's rarely that cheap. My least favorite part is actually the difficulty of the bosses, but as someone who has accepted they are not very good at action games, the summon system helps bypass that.

As a not particularly great action gamer, I managed to get through all of these games without much difficulty by accepting what the game offered to help (other than Sekiro, which pointedly does not include any of the typical difficulty mitigation features). If you want an uber-challenging supergame that pushes your skills to the limit, you can get that; but that is far from the only mode this series offers.

BetrayedTangy posted...
these games are less about "having fun"

Lol probably not the best way to phrase that. Me personally, fromsoft is some of the best fun ive ever had with games

yeah I generally summon a lot and I abused mimic tear in elden ring, had a blast

agesboy posted...

yeah I generally summon a lot and I abused mimic tear in elden ring, had a blast

Yeah. Some of the most fun I've ever had has been with co-op, especially in DS2. This is honestly bloodborne's only flaw, where they make you spend a limited resource to do co-op.

If you're having trouble on a boss or an area, you can practice in a pretty low-stakes environment by getting summoned into other players games. Then you improve and get exp, take a stab in your game and pay the favor forward by summoning help yourself.

Sometimes your help sucks, and sometimes you get carried as hell. All part of the fun.

Colegreen_c12 posted...

Not being able to pause is obviously not an issue until it is.

stop trying to defend it. Games are fine despite that

It hasn't been an issue since Bloodborne 1.0 when quitting out meant load times of over a minute. That was a legitimately bad combination, but it hasn't existed in any game including Bloodborne since then.

Also the penalties for death are massively oversold in these games. Except maybe DeS.

FoolFantastic posted...

Is going on a journey and facing new challenges not fun?

Depends on the journey and the challenges.

TomNook7 posted...

these games are less about "having fun"

Lol probably not the best way to phrase that. Me personally, fromsoft is some of the best fun ive ever had with games

Oh I agree with you wholeheartedly, but a lot of people won't find something like that fun. Which is unfortunate, but still true nonetheless

Cavedweller2000 posted...

I have, I got up to Father Gascoigne. At which point, after many deaths due to the aforementioned interruptions, I turned it off and never played it again

Btw your real problem is that you started with Bloodborne. Aside from the "wrong paths" in DS1 it is by far the most newcomer unfriendly Soulslike they've made.

kevwaffles posted...

Btw your real problem is that you started with Bloodborne. Aside from the "wrong paths" in DS1 it is by far the most newcomer unfriendly Soulslike they've made.

I'd say that used to be the case, but now Elden Ring is more beginner friendly. Less experienced players have more freedom to seek out easier bosses. It's like fromsoft got tired of people complaining about a lack of difficulty settings, and designed a beginner mode directly into the game

TomNook7 posted...

It's like fromsoft got tired of people complaining about a lack of difficulty settings, and designed a beginner mode directly into the game

And then they continued to complain about a lack of difficulty settings anyway

BetrayedTangy posted...

And then they continued to complain about a lack of difficulty settings anyway

Lmao

What he means it's less about instant dopamine crack hits and more about the dopamine that comes from hard work.

Steiner posted...

every single time i hear anybody describe why they like these games i am put off them more

This, and the pause thing blows my mind

what does no pause ADD to the experience?

also thanks y'all! I do like environmental storytelling but still sounds like not a game for me (but I'm still curious)

We need better gaming terminology to describe things. Souls games are very fun but they're not fun in the same way that collecting a shine sprite is or whatever.

The pause thing doesn't matter, there have been times I needed to step away and it was literally never an issue. Didn't even know this was such a mental block for people.

It's a design choice, the devs didn't want you to be able to manage inventory during the middle of a battle.
Or they were super lazy and didn't want to get pausing to work with the online mechanics.

Probably one of those two.

I feel like it's mostly the first, they don't want menu management to have a place in the game to distract from the action on screen

I also think the central idea that makes the Souls games work is their simple yet effective controls. It feels like what I imagine a more combat intensive Zelda game would feel like. I think that's something that gets lost a lot in the discussion; the Souls games just feel better than most other games.

It's the same way I feel about the Mario series, which I find controls better than most other platformers in a way that is hard to articulate. Souls has the basics down perfectly for a sword and shield-based combat system. Just, unlike Zelda (the other great sword and shield series), Souls has the right amount of challenge to make that combat system meaningful.

Man I haven't even thought about this whole pause button thing since Demons Souls in 2009. I didn't even know it was still an issue on peoples minds. Like when I first played Demons Souls, and realized you couldn't pause, I was like "huh, thats kinda crazy", and then just straight up never even thought about it since

These games don't have a pause button because they don't need one. They require the player to always give 100%. If you're too distracted to fight the boss at the moment, then just stand outside of the boss room until you're ready. The game wants you to earn your victories, and not just cheese bosses by pausing over and over. And if you do happen to get distracted and killed:

Murphiroth posted...

Guess what I do if I'm interrupted? I get up and handle it. Maybe I die, whatever. It never really means much to lose progress in these games and more often then not you can get back to where you were pretty quickly.

Exactly this. You gotta be willing to just be like "if I die, whatever." Some people have a tough time with that. Me personally I'd say theres three levels of skill I experienced when it came to fromsoft games:

1. Frustration
2. Git Good
3. Memes

Once you hit level 3, the games actually surprisingly become pretty damn funny. Let Me Solo Her and Finger But Hole

Steiner posted...

every single time i hear anybody describe why they like these games i am put off them more

Gonna have to agree with this.

FoolFantastic posted...

I also think the central idea that makes the Souls games work is their simple yet effective controls. It feels like what I imagine a more combat intensive Zelda game would feel like. I think that's something that gets lost a lot in the discussion; the Souls games just feel better than most other games.

It's the same way I feel about the Mario series, which I find controls better than most other platformers in a way that is hard to articulate. Souls has the basics down perfectly for a sword and shield-based combat system. Just, unlike Zelda (the other great sword and shield series), Souls has the right amount of challenge to make that combat system meaningful.

This is exactly right. Fromsoft games just have the best combat in all of gaming, hands down

Cavedweller2000 posted...

I have, I got up to Father Gascoigne. At which point, after many deaths due to the aforementioned interruptions, I turned it off and never played it again

Interruptions aside, I feel like Gascoigne is also significantly harder than most of the following bosses too because you likely don't have a full grasp on the mechanics by that point and the game does a shitty job of explaining it to you.

Once you know how the game works, Gascoigne is way easier because he's super telegraphed and you can just stun / visceral him (or toss like 3 Molotovs at him). But when you first reach him, most aren't comfortable with visceral attacks and how easily you can die early on even against normal moba encourages players to play defensive / scared and since Gascoigne is super aggressive, it leads to most people cheesing him rather than learning the necessary mechanics.

I recently played through Bloodborne and thought it was fantastic but I can easily see how people could be turned off by it. It's a weird game where there's a huge difficulty spike at the start and then as the game progresses it becomes easier and easier. The hours I spent pre-Amelia and post-Amelia are completely disproportionate to the amount of content contained within them. Post Amelia was where it kind of clicked and I just started rolling everything and not being bothered if I died playing significantly more aggressive.

Although I will say fuck those fucking insight sucking monsters. I really felt those were bad design purely because you can't get the insight back from killing them and insight is way slower to farm than it is to lose to them

KamikazePotato posted...

We need better gaming terminology to describe things. Souls games are very fun but they're not fun in the same way that collecting a shine sprite is or whatever.

It's sort of a friction thing, with the objects being your skill and the game's difficulty. Very broadly speaking (since there's a lot of overlap), sometimes games get easier because you get better from a skill and understanding perspective. Other times it's the game making itself easier by giving you access to better weapons or level ups.

You need the right balance between the two for a fun experience, and that will differ from player to player. It's why "kids games" aren't fun for us anymore because there's no friction; the game is easy and we're too skilled. And then other people don't like Souls games because there's too much friction; it's a "hard" game and they're not learning enough to make forward progress.