Board 8 > noob questions about souls/etc games

(+) Yeah! (+)

xenosaga posted...

the devs didn't want you to be able to manage inventory during the middle of a battle.

Probably this. If pausing stopped the action I suppose you could manipulate armor choices and equip weight in combat so that if you're going to take a hit you can swap to heavy armor/better resistances and then switch back to light armor after so you can still fast roll and stuff.

I know the natural response would probably be "well just disable equipment swaps in combat" but outside of bosses I don't know that the game really distinguishes combat from non-combat as a state to do that.

But put me on team "it doesn't really matter." As mentioned you can usually find relatively safe places to wait (or use the plentiful items including the infinite use one to forcibly warp yourself to such a spot.) And if you can't (there have been times I was interrupted and didn't have the opportunity to ensure I was definitely safe) just take the risk. A death isn't going to hurt you too much in almost all cases and you will respawn somewhere safe.

Shattered posted...

Interruptions aside, I feel like Gascoigne is also significantly harder than most of the following bosses too because you likely don't have a full grasp on the mechanics by that point and the game does a shitty job of explaining it to you.

Once you know how the game works, Gascoigne is way easier because he's super telegraphed and you can just stun / visceral him (or toss like 3 Molotovs at him). But when you first reach him, most aren't comfortable with visceral attacks and how easily you can die early on even against normal moba encourages players to play defensive / scared and since Gascoigne is super aggressive, it leads to most people cheesing him rather than learning the necessary mechanics.

I recently played through Bloodborne and thought it was fantastic but I can easily see how people could be turned off by it. It's a weird game where there's a huge difficulty spike at the start and then as the game progresses it becomes easier and easier. The hours I spent pre-Amelia and post-Amelia are completely disproportionate to the amount of content contained within them. Post Amelia was where it kind of clicked and I just started rolling everything and not being bothered if I died playing significantly more aggressive.

Although I will say fuck those fucking insight sucking monsters. I really felt those were bad design purely because you can't get the insight back from killing them and insight is way slower to farm than it is to lose to them

The difficulty of the game is not the reason I decided to stop playing. I relish a challenge. In fact I think I may have beaten him. Can't be 100% on that right now though.

And for those saying about item management during battles, have a blank pause screen. Let us be the ones to decide if we want to "take a break from battle".

Looking at the increased accessibility options there are in games nowadays, isn't the lack of a pause option a glaring omission?

I mean, i guess. Sure. Having pause exist and letting people minmax their armor for cheese doesn't impact how i would play.

But it hasn't really ever mattered for me. If they add it, great.

Elden Ring is a very fun game.

You can actually pause it by bringing up the Menu Explanation option in the menu. I think some other Souls games have ways to pause them too.

Or you can use a pause mod for any of the games on PC.

Yeah I don't really care about the pause button issue but my noob Bloodborne opinion is that blood vials are a stupid system.

I've played and beaten all of the other souls games but there was a point early on in Bloodborne where I had to farm blood vials because I ran out. I spent like 30 minutes farming blood vials and then I lost them all very quickly and noped out of that game.

Cavedweller2000 posted...

Looking at the increased accessibility options there are in games nowadays, isn't the lack of a pause option a glaring omission?

Not really. I wouldn't say it affects the game's accessibility much at all. If you just go stand in a corner, almost nothing in Souls games will hunt you down and kill you. If you REALLY need to go right that instant, Save/Quit is fundamentally the same as pausing and the game loads in seconds.

MacArrowny posted...

Elden Ring is a very fun game.

You can actually pause it by bringing up the Menu Explanation option in the menu. I think some other Souls games have ways to pause them too.

Or you can use a pause mod for any of the games on PC.

Yeah I believe photo mode can technically pause gameplay as well which makes it even more laughable why they don't just add a pause option. Anyway, I've said my piece. Sorry for steering the topic off point TC. I hope you enjoy the game if you decide to try it.

Also Sekiro allows you to pause, but I doubt that'll sway anyone's opinion.

Sekiro being the only one that lets you pause normally kinda implies that it's a multiplayer issue.

skullbone posted...

but my noob Bloodborne opinion is that blood vials are a stupid system.

That's not a noob opinion that's just straight up facts. It's legitimately worse even than DeS' grass.

If playing ps5, does pressing the ps button pause the games?

Doesn't on Bloodborne at least

notdave posted...

If playing ps5, does pressing the ps button pause the games?

No, not unless you loaded up YouTube or something to force it to suspend, but then it'll boot you back to menu anyway.

MacArrowny posted...

Sekiro being the only one that lets you pause normally kinda implies that it's a multiplayer issue.

Not exactly, Sekiro doesn't have the inventory issue either since there's only one primary weapon.

Man seeing pause be such a sticking point for people is pretty interesting. Literally haven't though about it since beating DeS and I've played every Souls era FromSoft game and stuff like Nioh.

Like others have said, you're almost never in any danger if you just stand still while not actively progressing and if you have to put the game down RIGHT NOW because your child is swallowing a Lego or something you can just take the death without too much consequence or just save and quit.

The lack of pause definitely helps the intensity of combat which is kind of the whole point of these games. Your victories feel earned and the feeling of sharpening your skills as a player with such tangible results is pretty intoxicating, it's little surprise the games are so widely loved.

The pause is a non issue to me because it's basically just "you can't pause while in battle"

When you're not in battle nothing will ever hurt you so it's fine to just sit there in the menu. In battle they want to encourage a constant stream of play, which isn't going to be that long.

I guess they could have just let you pause when you're safe.

TomNook7 posted...

not just cheese bosses by pausing over and over

I have never cheesed a boss by "pausing over and over". Wtf kind of cheesing method is that?

For me, the appeal is the combat flow, high stakes, and immersion, all of which are kind of emphasized by the lack of a hard pause. I think that's what makes the organic downtime of resting at a bonfire feel so rewarding. And in emergency cases, it still only takes like 2 seconds to hit save/quit from almost anywhere so I really don't see what the problem is...I put hundreds of hours into the Souls games and never had an issue with this

XIII_Rocks posted...

I have never cheesed a boss by "pausing over and over". Wtf kind of cheesing method is that?

Pause buffering. Something common enough to have a name.

i'm quite bad at video games and i like dark souls because i get to feel like i'm good at them as a reward for being patient

death is really low stakes in these games bc all you're losing is an easily renewable resource

if you're willing to play cautiously and think a bit about why you are or aren't succeeding at a particular thing, it's a perfectly manageable game experience.

also i like reading item descriptions about why drungo the dipshit king doomed his kingdom or whatever

Lack of a pausing was never an issue for me. It's honestly more forgiving than other online games because you can find downtime all over the place, and like I said before you can exit the game at any time and return exactly where you left it.

As for the appeal of the games in general, it's not even that they're "not fun", or that the difficulty is what makes them special; it's that when you overcome the challenges presented to you you feel a sense of accomplishment that few other games give you these days. So many modern games hold your hands and let you win as long as you just... sort of try. They'll give checkpoints everywhere (mid-boss checkpoints are so dumb imo), they'll lower the difficulty if you die (often without telling you), and if you ever get slightly lost or stuck there will be a hundred messages and glowing icons telling you what to do and where to go at all times. The Souls games are perfectly happy to let you drown if you don't know what you're doing, which sounds cruel, but they're not unfair, and if you get your act together and defeat whatever they throw at you then you KNOW you earned your victory, and that's a great source of enjoyment.

ivysnow posted...

death is really low stakes in these games bc all you're losing is an easily renewable resource

What does this mean? By this standard, the vast majority of games have low stakes deaths. I'd even say most have lower stakes deaths than Souls games.

Grand_Kirby posted...

As for the appeal of the games in general, it's not even that they're "not fun", or that the difficulty is what makes them special; it's that when you overcome the challenges presented to you you feel a sense of accomplishment that few other games give you these days. So many modern games hold your hands and let you win as long as you just... sort of try. They'll give checkpoints everywhere (mid-boss checkpoints are so dumb imo), they'll lower the difficulty if you die (often without telling you), and if you ever get slightly lost or stuck there will be a hundred messages and glowing icons telling you what to do and where to go at all times.

Honestly man this sounds exactly like Dark Souls, a game where key features are that it constantly saves, famously lets you win through attrition, and always has a million obnoxious messages and glowing icons on the floor. Maybe it doesn't do this stuff in exactly the way you're used to but it definitely does it.

I think the counter point to this discussion is Celeste. Celeste is a very difficult game, if you want it to be. But they also add no fail and cheats like infinite jumps and dashes to make it accessible for everyone.

Do those options ruin the enjoyment for people who want the challenge? No

So why are Dark Soul fans so against just opening the franchise up to more people? Plenty of hard games have easy modes, it feels a little gatekeepy to say that Dark Souls is good because it's too hard or inconvenient for some people.

I'm actually not against adding in optional difficulty levels/stuff like Celeste, I just think that souls games in particular feel designed around not having access to pause. I'd be fine with them adding them in, but I'm also fine with them not. It's kinda how I feel about pausing in the Monster Hunter franchise, too.

The pause thing is a super valid criticism, and this is coming from someone that never had any issue with it because most often it's not a big deal to sit at a bonfire (or whatever the equivalent) if you need to go get something.

It's alsk not entirely true that you can just walk away when not in combat though. There are plenty of areas where some enemy is moving and might go kill you in cases like this. There are also more where this can't happen, but you don't really know for sure when playing first time.

skullbone posted...

So why are Dark Soul fans so against just opening the franchise up to more people? Plenty of hard games have easy modes, it feels a little gatekeepy to say that Dark Souls is good because it's too hard or inconvenient for some people.

Elden Ring sold like 20 million copies. At this point I think people complaining about no easy mode or pause are the outliers, not the consensus, especially after ER added a bunch of ways to make the game easier on its own. If someone still isn't happy, that's fine. The games don't have to be for absolutely everyone.

skullbone posted...

So why are Dark Soul fans so against just opening the franchise up to more people? Plenty of hard games have easy modes, it feels a little gatekeepy to say that Dark Souls is good because it's too hard or inconvenient for some people.

Because it goes against the artistic integrity of the game. The intended experience is fundamentally changed by adding difficulty options.

It's even backed up by the lore. Every player is considered an Undead. So if an Undead gives up on their quest they eventually lose their sentience and turn Hollow. So the game is basically saying if you quit the game for good, your character goes Hollow and becomes a basic enemy.

If you take away the difficulty, you take away a crucial piece of the concept. Artists shouldn't have to change their work to meet the demands of others. Plus it's clearly worked in their favor, so I don't see a reason why they should change it at this point.

I guess I just see "difficulty" as something that should be considered under the accessibility design for a game. Even if it's a minority there are people who want to play these games and can't because they're too difficult for them.

Of course they're not entitled to be able to play every game and it's not like they have a disability preventing them from playing the game (unless they do). It's just a bummer to know that these great games are out of the reach of some people who want to be able to play them because they don't add something as simple as a pause button or an easy mode.

It's like asking someone to learn French to watch a foreign movie because the director doesn't want to add subtitles.

KamikazePotato posted...

Elden Ring sold like 20 million copies. At this point I think people complaining about no easy mode or pause are the outliers, not the consensus, especially after ER added a bunch of ways to make the game easier on its own. If someone still isn't happy, that's fine. The games don't have to be for absolutely everyone.

I don't think "this game sold a lot" is a good defense. Lots of games that sell well have room for improvement that would make them sell more and not alienate the current fanbase - Pokemon Scarlet/Violet are good recent examples.

MacArrowny posted...

I don't think "this game sold a lot" is a good defense. Lots of games that sell well have room for improvement that would make them sell more and not alienate the current fanbase - Pokemon Scarlet/Violet are good recent examples.

hes not saying sales = game quality

hes saying theres clearly a very big demand for games that lack pause buttons and easy modes

skullbone posted...

Even if it's a minority there are people who want to play these games and can't because they're too difficult for them.

Then they're not actually interested in playing the games.

The difficulty is a core part of the experience. If someone wants to play an easy Souls game, then there's plenty of Soulslikes on the market with difficulty options and pause buttons.

Yeah that's the level of gatekeeping I really don't understand with these games. It's like other people playing on easy impacts your experience somehow which is confusing.

But idk, this isn't something where anyone will change anyones minds I just wanted to bring up Celeste as basically the opposite of Dark Souls in terms of accessibility versus difficulty.

TomNook7 posted...

hes not saying sales = game quality

hes saying theres clearly a very big demand for games that lack pause buttons and easy modes

absolutely dwarfed by the demand for games with pause buttons (almost every other game ever made) though

I think Elden Ring handles difficultly really well. If you ever hit a part that's too hard for you there are tons of different ways to get around it, from gaining more power elsewhere, using summons or spirits to defeat hard enemies, etc. And there's tons of different ways to advance. That's wayyyyy better than just adding some "Easy mode". It naturally supports people who play it.

Kenri posted...

Honestly man this sounds exactly like Dark Souls, a game where key features are that it constantly saves, famously lets you win through attrition, and always has a million obnoxious messages and glowing icons on the floor. Maybe it doesn't do this stuff in exactly the way you're used to but it definitely does it.

I have no idea what game you played, or if you even read my post lol. It's not even a comparison.

Ignoring this whole pause debate.

I'm just gonna say, and this story isn't unique to me, in fact I'm pretty sure we have users here that also had the same experience.

I bought Demon's Souls used at a gamestop after hearing everyone talking about it, getting GOTY at gamespot. Seemed up my alley as I like action combat games, I liked the setting, and then well I played it. Fucking hated it lol. It felt slow, it was hard, I didn't understand what exactly I was doing where I was supposed to go. I put probably 5-8 hours into before I sold it back to gamestop.

Word of mouth kept growing so a year later I figured I would try it again, why not, I have nothing better to do. Then it just clicked, everything about it just hit differently. I understood the mechanics better, I understood my objectives better, I understood exploration, the awe of beating a boss you were stuck on, stumbling into new areas by accident. So for me, the main appeal is just trying and figuring shit out on your own.

Fuck the scraping spear though.

skullbone posted...

It's like asking someone to learn French to watch a foreign movie because the director doesn't want to add subtitles.

Bad comparison honestly.... games ain't movies.

And nobody wants to gatekeep Fromsoft games away from potential new players lol. I'm going to tell you something that'll blow your mind: Fromsoft games aren't even that hard. If all the detractors in this topic took the time to properly learn how to play these games, I guarantee they'd look back at how silly this entire discussion has been

Grand_Kirby posted...

I have no idea what game you played, or if you even read my post lol. It's not even a comparison.

"Famously lets you win through attrition" is basically outing oneself as not only having never played it but also being an easy mark for outrage farming.

skullbone posted...

Yeah that's the level of gatekeeping I really don't understand with these games. It's like other people playing on easy impacts your experience somehow which is confusing.

But idk, this isn't something where anyone will change anyones minds I just wanted to bring up Celeste as basically the opposite of Dark Souls in terms of accessibility versus difficulty.

I also disagree with using Celeste as a positive example of easy mode accessibility. I think giving Celeste infinite jumps completely goes against the core theme of the game, and I dislike that it's an option.

KamikazePotato posted...

I also disagree with using Celeste as a positive example of easy mode accessibility. I think giving Celeste infinite jumps completely goes against the core theme of the game, and I dislike that it's an option.

Same

Okay it seems like we just fundamentally disagree on difficulty in video games then. I have a friend who is not very good at games and he got to experience Celeste and Hades because of the no fail and invincibility modes. I'm glad he got to experience those games and it didn't hamper my enjoyment of getting the platinum trophy for either.

He bounced off of Elden Ring after like 10 hours which was a bummer because everyone else in our group was having a good time playing and talking about it.

So it more people like my friend get to experience games, even if it's a muted experience compared to everyone else, I'm fine with it.

I introduced my wife to Elden Ring specifically because it was hard and she wasn't really a gamer (outside of Animal Crossing) and I thought it would be funny. It backfired as she absolutely loved it and played 177 hours. I had to buy another PS5 so I could actually play stuff again.

She is actually trying to get me to buy another copy so we can do a playthrough together like we did for Bloodborne

See I'm pretty much firmly in the camp of "let the devs add whatever they feel is appropriate for their vision and how about everyone else just shut up" in terms of difficulty adjustments. Pure accessibility is different entirely because those don't impact gameplay - ie put in a damn colorblind mode or even just adjust colors if a problem is found and you're on a shoestring budget (Undertale did that).

skullbone posted...

He bounced off of Elden Ring after like 10 hours which was a bummer because everyone else in our group was having a good time playing and talking about it.

See that's not FromSoft's fault. That's firmly and solely on you and your friends for withholding how to break the game with the Mimic Tear.

/s

skullbone posted...

Yeah that's the level of gatekeeping I really don't understand with these games. It's like other people playing on easy impacts your experience somehow which is confusing.

Nobody's gatekeeping you. The only person stopping you from playing the game is yourself.

There are plenty of ways to make these games easier. Walkthroughs, glitches, mods, cheese tactics, spirit ashes, summoning, etc. You can play it however you want.

If you don't want to put in the effort, then that's fine too. Nobody's forcing or preventing you from doing anything related to these games.

I've played all of the games, I know they're easy.

BetrayedTangy posted...

If you don't want to put in the effort, then that's fine too.

These little backhanded comments are so weird. You seem to be taking it way more personal than everyone else in this topic that some people might want to pause the game lol.

I played 52 hours of Elden. Level 42. Called it quits. First Fromm game for me. Very few complaints about the game overall, but as far as addressing difficulty, I felt the balance of vitality to enemy ability to dmg could be tweaked a bit to increase the fun of the game.

Didn't care at all about no pausing. I quit because I had a hard time collecting a few of the rare smithing stones I needed for major upgrades and it was the same time the game took a leap in difficulty, as if all my previous leveling mattered not. But for a while there I was really kicking some butt.

skullbone posted...

Okay it seems like we just fundamentally disagree on difficulty in video games then. I have a friend who is not very good at games and he got to experience Celeste and Hades because of the no fail and invincibility modes. I'm glad he got to experience those games and it didn't hamper my enjoyment of getting the platinum trophy for either.

Celeste specifically has a message of 'it may be hard, but you can do it if you try.' The game revolves around that theme. It's meant to build you up. I think it legitimately cheapens the artistic integrity of the game's messaging if it includes cheat options. More than the Souls games, I take offense to Celeste doing an easy mode. You honestly couldn't have picked a worse example for this kind of argument.

skullbone posted...

These little backhanded comments are so weird. You seem to be taking it way more personal than everyone else in this topic that some people might want to pause the game lol.

Because I'm tired of the "If something doesn't appeal to me, it's bad" argument.

It's not just a Souls thing either. Majority of debates I've seen anymore usually just boildown to skin deep complaints and it's exhausting to read.

It's like complaining about The Godfather being a slow movie. If you don't like slow movies that's fine, but acting like the movie is bad because of it is asinine.