Board 8 > noob questions about souls/etc games

(+) Yeah! (+)

Some bosses can feel like one-hit combos kill you so there's not much give and take there other than "either get better or get more hp". And people who aren't good enough, myself included, can feel like that forces them to put the game down.

I never played Celeste, but i feel like an offline only mode where From games have a % speed modifier would be a big step forward in its accessibility. Sometimes things just go so fast, and it wouldn't harm players who like that to keep it at standard game speed.

An option to cancel all your moves with any other move, and no other changes, would prob satisfy anyone looking for an easy mode

MacArrowny posted...

You could say this for almost every game. I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

Dying in those particular games isn't a problem either. I have no idea why people have some horrifying phobia of losing like 2 minutes of progress when the actual main form of progress is developing your skills through experience and repetition.

Yeah there's very very few games where dying matters

Even dying and losing 20 mins of progress isn't terribly important in practice, and that only happens in some very few games these days, none of which are From games. It's whatever. Going again and doing better is fun! It's one of the many things gaming is about.

I still think having an easy mode takes away from the experience they are trying to curate.

It's the same reason why Pokmon doesn't have a hard mode. They don't want it to be hard on purpose. Would I be much more interested in Pokmon if it was harder? Yes. Am I complaining about it in ever topic? No

BetrayedTangy posted...

We're tired of defending our niche community and being told we're wrong for liking it.

I get that. I just don't think it was everyone who said that who would appre a pause option.

Murphiroth posted...

Y'all are really overestimating how much of a set back dying in Souls is.

It's nothing. You lose minutes at most, and losing progress is sort of part of the bedrock of these games anyway.

Nah this is missing the point entirely and it's also wrong. You might lose souls/runes/whatever worth way more than minutes. But you may also have lost a good attempt. You might also not have as much time to game that a few of these incidents would be a huge loss. You can say it's deliberate and good and whatever, but you're downplaying the point being made.

I like all arguments about game design and experience.

I dislike arguments stating that there's almost no loss to be had from dying.

I feel like they contradict a bit. The whole point is that you have things at stake. You lose time, you lose aouls, if you had already died you lose them permanently, you become hollow. All that. You can't argue it's both part of the experience and that you're only losing a little bit of time. It can only be one of those (it's the first btw).

masterplum posted...

It's the same reason why Pokmon doesn't have a hard mode. They don't want it to be hard on purpose. Would I be much more interested in Pokmon if it was harder? Yes. Am I complaining about it in ever topic? No

Ftr they had that once and it was great imo

ctesjbuvf posted...

Ftr they had that once and it was great imo

What about BW2's hard/easy mode was great? You could only access that shit after beating the game or connecting with someone who did, it was the most horribly implemented version of a difficulty setting I've ever seen

PeaceFrog posted...

Some bosses can feel like one-hit combos kill you so there's not much give and take there other than "either get better or get more hp". And people who aren't good enough, myself included, can feel like that forces them to put the game down.

This is the biggest issue I have with Dark Souls games. Bosses are literally trial and error until you've seen everything they can do.

Woops didn't know the boss had that flame breath attack, guess I'm dead and need to spend several minutes running back to the boss to try again. And even then a lot of times you miss the tells because a lot of bosses are huge and you're up their asshole with the camera, so realistically it takes more than one time seeing an attack to internalize when you need to dodge.

There's very little ability to get good DURING the fight. You have an opportunity to get good AFTER the fight. This never feels good to me. I've almost never clutched a fight first or even second time in the bits of Dark Souls/Bloodborne I've tried.

It's rote retrying until you get it down and that's the worst kind of learning there is both in video games and real life.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Nah this is missing the point entirely and it's also wrong. You might lose souls/runes/whatever worth way more than minutes. But you may also have lost a good attempt. You might also not have as much time to game that a few of these incidents would be a huge loss. You can say it's deliberate and good and whatever, but you're downplaying the point being made.

I'm not downplaying anything, that's just my perspective.

I think saying "losing minutes at most" is downplaying it.

Especially because some of my favorite moments in the series is getting past a really difficult area hoping for a bonfire to show.

tcaz2 posted...

need to spend several minutes running back to the boss to try again.

you'll be glad to learn elden ring puts respawn points for bosses like 5 seconds away from the boss room then

stakes of marika is the best fuckin improvement the series has ever had

ctesjbuvf posted...

I think saying "losing minutes at most" is downplaying it.

Especially because some of my favorite moments in the series is getting past a really difficult area hoping for a bonfire to show.

*shrug*

Same, but I just don't care about losing souls, or losing a good attempt. I shrug and move on.

agesboy posted...

What about BW2's hard/easy mode was great? You could only access that shit after beating the game or connecting with someone who did, it was the most horribly implemented version of a difficulty setting I've ever seen

For sure it could've been implemented better. Especially because only Black 2 had hard mode, easy mode was in White 2. That said the idea was nice and I got to enjoy it.

Lots of bosses had a bonfire close to them already though.

MacArrowny posted...

You could say this for almost every game. I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up.

Because no other series gets the consequences of dying anywhere near as overblown. People genuinely treat losing souls the same as dying at level 90+ in Diablo 2.

kevwaffles posted...

Because no other series gets the consequences of dying anywhere near as overblown. People genuinely treat losing souls the same as dying at level 90+ in Diablo 2.

No? People treat it like dying after gaining a level in a Final Fantasy game or something.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Nah this is missing the point entirely and it's also wrong. You might lose souls/runes/whatever worth way more than minutes. But you may also have lost a good attempt. You might also not have as much time to game that a few of these incidents would be a huge loss. You can say it's deliberate and good and whatever, but you're downplaying the point being made.

If you have so little time to game that losing five minutes (or hell, ten) of progress is a massive setback, then maybe entertainment in general isn't a great idea? I don't read nor watch movies nor game when I might get called away after just a few minutes, because you can't properly enjoy anything if outside concerns are on the back of your mind as you try to immerse. It's not even that it's disrespectful to the media being consumed or anything...it's that you're selling your own me time short if you don't actually block off a little time for yourself to enjoy things properly.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I get that. I just don't think it was everyone who said that who would appre a pause option.

Yeah that's totally fair.

I guess a similar example on my end would be the original Resident Evil.

The limited number of saves and strict inventory management has deterred me for years. I wouldn't say that's an issue with the game though, it was designed specifically to stress you out.

So while it might be considered 'bad game design' by today's standards, I think it helps the game stand out more in spite of it now.

Honestly, talking about it in this context kinda makes me want to try it now anyway.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

If you have so little time to game that losing five minutes (or hell, ten) of progress is a massive setback, then maybe entertainment in general isn't a great idea? I don't read nor watch movies nor game when I might get called away after just a few minutes, because you can't properly enjoy anything if outside concerns are on the back of your mind as you try to immerse. It's not even that it's disrespectful to the media being consumed or anything...it's that you're selling your own me time short if you don't actually block off a little time for yourself to enjoy things properly.

I think you're still missing the point about it being more than just minutes lost.

i think we're up to four people who have replied to "I would enjoy this game if it simply had a pause button" with "maybe you should never play video games at all"

Losing a ton of progress from dying at a boss doesn't really happen any more though? They moved away from that because it was bad design. Now pretty much every major boss has a bonfire

Dying while looking for a bonfire is still tense and great and has nothing to do with learning attacks from a boss

notdave posted...

i think we're up to four people who have replied to "I would enjoy this game if it simply had a pause button" with "maybe you should never play video games at all"

Are people actually taking the pause thing seriously. Outside of boss fights you can just save and quit. Inside of boss fights it very explicitly is on purpose that you can't pause

Why is this an argument

notdave posted...

i think we're up to four people who have replied to "I would enjoy this game if it simply had a pause button" with "maybe you should never play video games at all"

No one said not to play video games before you described a scenario that specifically sounds like a person shouldn't be playing video games during.

notdave posted...

i think we're up to four people who have replied to "I would enjoy this game if it simply had a pause button" with "maybe you should never play video games at all"

Why are you only pointing to the two extremes? Is there something stopping you from playing Sekiro or Nioh?

kevwaffles posted...

No one said not to play video games before you described a scenario that specifically sounds like a person shouldn't be playing video games during.

that scenario being "a person's phone might ring"?

lots of conclusions were jumped to based on the example of an interruption I gave, but there are lots of valid interruptions. there's just a major lack of empathy in this discussion.

it's not crazy to suggest that you may not actually have time for these games, they're a bit demanding

I mean as much as I loved the Souls titles I haven't touched Elden Ring yet b/c I haven't been able to fit it into my schedule

I dont know if anyone else mentioned this in 5 pages, but the reason you cant pause is an intentional choice for game design.

Its hard to explain if you havent played it, but if they allowed pausing during inventory management, it subverts their game design decisions around the way different armor, weapons, and abilities work at different ranges. You could equip all your strongest spells/ranged weapon at range, pause when they approach, and equip your close range gear.

Ok, so what if they disallowed inventory management during combat but still let you pause?

Then they would have to integrate combat as an identifiable state. Are you in combat when an archer is 200 feet away shooting at you, but youre safely behind a pillar? Better hope you already have long range or light weight so you can take care of him/close in, because now you cant open the inventory.

Sekiro doesnt have inventory management like the rest, so neither of these things apply.

So yeah, they COULD ignore both those issues and just let players do it, but its arguable that FromSofts intentional and specific design decisions are the entire reason Dark Souls even became popular. Theres literally no other game with this kind of fanbase in the genre, and at some point you should ask why that is.

I think if there's something I don't personally enjoy in the games it's when they force me to platform lol.

Also somebody brought up Mimic Tear as easy mode. Don't you still have to get past a few shardbearers and such to get that?

Or keep the game exactly the same and don't pause the game when you're in menus or managing inventory and just add a black screen with white text that says "Paused" like most other games do.

Or keep the game exactly the same, because FromSoft doesn't have to change their creations for anyone.

I feel like it has less to do with inventory management or whatever than it is largely an atmospheric decision. The Souls games are all horror adjacent, and the sense that you might stumble into something monstrous without being able to take the time to pause and think is part of the atmosphere. The series wants you to be on your toes at all times between bonfires. I think they are avoiding the idea of being able to pause for a sense of relief - which, unfortunately, makes it hard for people who do have more frequent interruptions. But it still clearly has a place in the atmospheric design of the series.

Like, I struggle with other horror games for the opposite reason. If I can pause, I will inevitably pause when it gets to be too much, but then it completely kills the vibe.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I think you're still missing the point about it being more than just minutes lost.

I'm not talking about minutes lost though. I'm talking about the severe loss of immersion, attachment to the narrative, and ability to dedicate your full focus to the media you're consuming. You can't do that if IRL is calling you away constantly, wouldn't you agree? At that point, if you're truly interested in the thing you're exploring, you should just...not indulge until you have time.

I don't have an emotional investment in the pause debate but it's fine. oh the phone rings or the dog pukes? that's more of a "that sucks man" and less of a "the game sucks".

Elden Ring at least does not need an easy mode

Yeah if you need to get the phone the moment it rings every time and you are getting called often enough that it is frequently an issue where calls are coming specifically during fights you cant turn the game off in

Maybe play some other time

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I dont know if anyone else mentioned this in 5 pages, but the reason you cant pause is an intentional choice for game design.

Its hard to explain if you havent played it, but if they allowed pausing during inventory management, it subverts their game design decisions around the way different armor, weapons, and abilities work at different ranges. You could equip all your strongest spells/ranged weapon at range, pause when they approach, and equip your close range gear.

Ok, so what if they disallowed inventory management during combat but still let you pause?

Then they would have to integrate combat as an identifiable state. Are you in combat when an archer is 200 feet away shooting at you, but youre safely behind a pillar? Better hope you already have long range or light weight so you can take care of him/close in, because now you cant open the inventory.

Sekiro doesnt have inventory management like the rest, so neither of these things apply.

So yeah, they COULD ignore both those issues and just let players do it, but its arguable that FromSofts intentional and specific design decisions are the entire reason Dark Souls even became popular. Theres literally no other game with this kind of fanbase in the genre, and at some point you should ask why that is.

There are games out there with separate pause and inventory buttons. No reason not to have that here.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I'm not talking about minutes lost though. I'm talking about the severe loss of immersion, attachment to the narrative, and ability to dedicate your full focus to the media you're consuming. You can't do that if IRL is calling you away constantly, wouldn't you agree?

No. I would not agree. I do think it's sad you can't empathize with people who live different kind of lives from you, though.

FoolFantastic posted...

I feel like it has less to do with inventory management or whatever than it is largely an atmospheric decision. The Souls games are all horror adjacent, and the sense that you might stumble into something monstrous without being able to take the time to pause and think is part of the atmosphere. The series wants you to be on your toes at all times between bonfires. I think they are avoiding the idea of being able to pause for a sense of relief - which, unfortunately, makes it hard for people who do have more frequent interruptions. But it still clearly has a place in the atmospheric design of the series.

The Souls games are no more horror-adjacent than Sekiro, where you can pause. Once again, the only reason you can't pause is because they're online games. Same reason you can't pause in Diablo 4 or Final Fantasy XIV or whatever.

MacArrowny posted...

No. I would not agree. I do think it's sad you can't empathize with people who live different kind of lives from you, though.

Are you really trying to virtue signal right now?

Video Games are great, but they're hardly a necessity and even then there's tons of games designed specifically for people with busy schedules.

Hell this past month, I really wanted to watch Succession, but I was broke and couldn't afford HBO. So guess what? I went without it until I got paid. Should I be blaming the streaming service?

After reading this topic
Steiner posted...

every single time i hear anybody describe why they like these games i am put off them more

BetrayedTangy posted...

Video Games are great, but they're hardly a necessity and even then there's tons of games designed specifically for people with busy schedules.

They're also designed specifically for people with good vision, hearing, reflexes, and ten fingers. And yet most devs (not From) put accessibility options in their games to help people with disabilities play. Some people enjoy games in different ways, and that's okay.

why are souls games online? aren't they single player games?

I'm not sure what that has to do with the fact stop-start play is going to make it very hard to get into a game's cadence unless it actually is designed for stopping and starting easily. No Final Fantasy game is gonna land its story perfectly if a phone call takes you out of the game for thirty minutes and alters your emotional state away from what it was at the moment a surprising betrayal took place, to name one example. That's not lack of empathy, that's just facts. It may still be good, but I don't think there's a cohesive argument for games being played at their best while plagued by interruptions?

I enjoy RTS games, but I'm awful at most of them. Because of that, my favorites are ones that have a pause button where you can take as much time as you want to look around the map issuing orders and stuff. Obscure games like They Are Billions, AI War, and the battle sections in Total War games. Should other RTS games like Starcraft be obligated to include such a feature in order to be more accessible to me?

You can pause Starcraft.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I'm not sure what that has to do with the fact stop-start play is going to make it very hard to get into a game's cadence unless it actually is designed for stopping and starting easily. No Final Fantasy game is gonna land its story perfectly if a phone call takes you out of the game for thirty minutes and alters your emotional state away from what it was at the moment a surprising betrayal took place, to name one example. That's not lack of empathy, that's just facts. It may still be good, but I don't think there's a cohesive argument for games being played at their best while plagued by interruptions?

I assure you that plenty of people start/stop FF games. There's a reason people often ask for pausable cutscenes.

MacArrowny posted...

You can pause Starcraft.

Pause to save and take a break, sure. I mean pausing while still having full access to the map so you can issue orders to micro every individual unit before unpausing

Souls games boil down to a lot of leveling for me.

A major focus is generally high HP, and in my opinion, learning to fight enemies without locking on to them. [Except in the case of certain types of spell usage, which is not really possible to have a spell strike an enemy without locking on. Although, Dark Souls II actually made the binoculars useful, with the ability to aim magic manually. Also, lock on range is set for a longer distance when fighting a boss in DS2 too.]

The funny thing is this extreme viewpoint is what resulted in Balen Wonderworld

What if our player only has one finger. Better make sure the game is accessible to one finger people by only having one button

KanzarisKelshen posted...

If you have so little time to game that losing five minutes (or hell, ten) of progress is a massive setback, then maybe entertainment in general isn't a great idea?

I'm not trying to be mean here but do you not have people knock on your door ever? Or call you? Almost all other home entertainment accommodates this. Every book, every movie/TV show, almost every video game with some exceptions, like JRPGs where you can't pause during cutscenes (which sucks!)

FoolFantastic posted...

I feel like it has less to do with inventory management or whatever than it is largely an atmospheric decision. The Souls games are all horror adjacent, and the sense that you might stumble into something monstrous without being able to take the time to pause and think is part of the atmosphere. The series wants you to be on your toes at all times between bonfires. I think they are avoiding the idea of being able to pause for a sense of relief - which, unfortunately, makes it hard for people who do have more frequent interruptions. But it still clearly has a place in the atmospheric design of the series.

Like, I struggle with other horror games for the opposite reason. If I can pause, I will inevitably pause when it gets to be too much, but then it completely kills the vibe.

Just throwing it out there but my immersion is broken way harder when features like this are missing. Like when older horror/FPS games didn't let you up the brightness -- I wasn't thinking "wow how dark and spooky" I was thinking "I can't see your shitty-ass game". When I can't pause Demon's Souls I don't think "wow how tense and oppressive" I think "why is your game missing a standard feature?"