Board 8 > noob questions about souls/etc games

(+) Yeah! (+)

Mobilezoid posted...

Pause to save and take a break, sure. I mean pausing while still having full access to the map so you can issue orders to micro every individual unit before unpausing

We're just talking about the former here, not the latter. Nobody asked for inventory changing in the Souls games while pausing.

masterplum posted...

The funny thing is this extreme viewpoint is what resulted in Balen Wonderworld

What if our player only has one finger. Better make sure the game is accessible to one finger people by only having one button

That is certainly not the reason Balan Wonderworld works the way it does.

BetrayedTangy posted...

Hell this past month, I really wanted to watch Succession, but I was broke and couldn't afford HBO. So guess what? I went without it until I got paid. Should I be blaming the streaming service?

Yeah kinda. Have you seen the state of streaming services right now??

MacArrowny posted...

They're also designed specifically for people with good vision, hearing, reflexes, and ten fingers. And yet most devs (not From) put accessibility options in their games to help people with disabilities play. Some people enjoy games in different ways, and that's okay.

If you don't have a disability it's pretty gross to use those with them as a tent pole for your argument.

If you really cared about the disability angle you'd mention things like colorblind mode or remappable controls, but you're not. The only thing people are demanding in here is pausing and an 'Easy mode'.

Last time I checked being busy and sucking at video games aren't disabilities.

That take is right up there with the victim blaming line from last night.

BetrayedTangy posted...

If you don't have a disability it's pretty gross to use those with them as a tent pole for your argument.

If you really cared about the disability angle you'd mention things like colorblind mode or remappable controls, but you're not. The only thing people are demanding in here is pausing and an 'Easy mode'.

Last time I checked being busy and sucking at video games aren't disabilities.

That take is right up there with the victim blaming line from last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcuPelhGlDc

Pausing is an accessibility feature.

I'm not trying to be mean here but do you not have people knock on your door ever? Or call you? Almost all other home entertainment accommodates this. Every book, every movie/TV show, almost every video game with some exceptions, like JRPGs where you can't pause during cutscenes (which sucks!)

Yeah, I do. I also set time aside though, and don't do any of those things if I expect there's gonna be significant interruptions. Like sometimes something comes up, but if I think I'm gonna be interrupted more than once in a given block of a couple hours I will go do something else that doesn't get disrupted so badly.

MacArrowny posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcuPelhGlDc

Pausing is an accessibility feature.

Its ok for games to not be accessible just like its ok for art to not be accessible

BetrayedTangy posted...

If you really cared about the disability angle you'd mention things like colorblind mode or remappable controls, but you're not. The only thing people are demanding in here is pausing and an 'Easy mode'.

Speaking of remappable controls, it's fuckin amazing when that option is console-level instead of game-level, so you can still do it even when the game doesn't want you to.

MacArrowny posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcuPelhGlDc

Pausing is an accessibility feature.

Yes because random YouTubers are reputable sources and are leading experts in everything they talk about.

tcaz2 posted...

There's very little ability to get good DURING the fight

That's so wrong

So many bosses have secret final phases when they're really low on health, and you do often beat them the first time you get there. It's ridiculously dramatic and satisfying and a big reason why the game is so addictive.

Gonna be honest, I'm still pretty grossed out by this debate and I'm not going to continue to entertain this idea of using people with disabilities as ammo in an Internet debate.

Kenri posted...

Speaking of remappable controls, it's fuckin amazing when that option is console-level instead of game-level, so you can still do it even when the game doesn't want you to.

Also strongly agree on this. There's a surprisingly large amount of adaptability controllers on the market.

BetrayedTangy posted...

Are you really trying to virtue signal right now?

Video Games are great, but they're hardly a necessity and even then there's tons of games designed specifically for people with busy schedules.

Hell this past month, I really wanted to watch Succession, but I was broke and couldn't afford HBO. So guess what? I went without it until I got paid. Should I be blaming the streaming service?

See it's stuff like this where I feel like you are out of line because that's not at all the same thing. HBO would be greatly impacted by not making money off of their services. There is a cost. The argument here is exactly that everyone currently enjoying the games would enjoy them just as much with some pause options that they can just not use, while more people would enjoy them, at absolutely no actual cost of From or anyone.

Video games being no necessity for anyone is also a null point because while it's true, it does not mean people can't disagree with decisions made in them.

Your case is that it's a deliberate design choice that you and many believe make the games greater for atmosphere or whatever. It's a good case too.

BetrayedTangy posted...

Yes because random YouTubers are reputable sources and are leading experts in everything they talk about.

Its not that it isnt an accessibility feature, its that everything is an accessibility feature. If your game cant be beaten by 4 year olds or 80 year olds who have never touched a game before then it isnt accessible to them.

So why even have a game at all at that point. Sure you can make it optional, but then you are no longer controlling how people experience your art, and Im not going to be mad that people are controlling over their art

I dont care if artists keep it accessible, I dont care if they dont, but if they purposefully choose a path ragging on them is dumb

BetrayedTangy posted...

Gonna be honest, I'm still pretty grossed out by this debate and I'm not going to continue to entertain this idea of using people with disabilities as ammo in an Internet debate.

I would have preferred not to reveal this but I do have a disability (and theoretically one for which a pause button would be an accessibility feature, I think) and at least personally I'm fine with what Mac has been saying so far.

I would have loved for Elden Ring to have extra attachable buttons for the ps5 controller, the horse controls regularly made my hands feels arthritic.

On the topic of accessibility, i think that more people getting to experience a game in a way that is comfortable for them is a good thing. And developers can be creative to make the games simultaneously more accessible while not detracting from the desired gameplay loops, and also can accomplish both of those things without resorting to numerical adjustments for easy/normal/hard/XTRA-XTREME-HARDCORE

Kenri posted...

I would have preferred not to reveal this but I do have a disability (and theoretically one for which a pause button would be an accessibility feature, I think) and at least personally I'm fine with what Mac has been saying so far.

And that's fair, I appreciate you pointing that out to me.

As far as me ending that line of debate, there were actually a couple of reasons behind me saying that. One is I didn't want to speak for my friends that have disabilities.

As well as the fact that I'm currently seeking psychiatric help, because I've longed believe that I have one too and just haven't had the chance to go until now.

So I was simply avoiding self diagnosing as well as using others as examples of ableism. I just don't think one person has the right to speak for an entire community of people and it's not something I wanted to continue to partake in.

I guess while I'm on the subject of opening up, I might as well elaborate on my defensiveness in this topic.

I was in a terrible spot a few years ago and had a crippling lack of confidence in myself. I couldn't trust myself to succeed in anything and had completely isolated myself from everyone. I only started the game as an attempt to distract me, I started off using a walkthrough, but little by little as I carried on, I stopped using the guide as much and started having fun. It was the best feeling I had in a long time and before long I was done with the game.

It was probably one of the most rewarding experiences of my life and it basically taught me that life can be hard and incredibly unfair at times, but as long as you persevere, everything's going to be okay.

Since then, I've moved, spent more time thinking about and working towards my future and as stated before I sought psychiatric treatment for the first time in my life. I know it's sappy and pathetic, but this franchise has been influential towards the growth of my mental health. While I still have a lot of learning and growth to do, I'm glad these games got me started on that journey.

It's sappy and pathetic I know, but I'm also not the only person who has had this experience. To me that is the magic of Dark Souls.

So if I offended anyone in this topic, I truly am sorry and that's really the last thing I have to say on the subject.

There's nothing sappy and pathetic about that take Tangy

Like...that's kind of what Dark Souls is about. When Nook said 'it's not about having fun' earlier he was correct. Souls games ARE fun, but the point of Dark Souls is achievement and fulfillment. That's worth preserving, since it's very important and arguably the very core of the experience (as explained by Miyazaki himself talking about the whole 'people in a snowstorm helping each other push their cars forward' thing that inspired souls). It's also why pausing isn't enabled in most of them, since they have to be ready to swap to online at a moment's notice so people can both surprise you, troll you and help you. It's about forming connections with people you've never met before by happenstance, and not being able to opt out of that does make the game stronger in several ways, in spite of the downsides it also creates. There's value to choices that don't automatically make games frictionless, if done with some meaningful intent.

BetrayedTangy posted...

If I modded all the dungeons and combat out of OoT am I still playing Ocarina of Time?

yeah it's called the any% speedrun

Thorn posted...

yeah it's called the any% speedrun

Almost makes this topic worth it.

Almost

PeaceFrog posted...

Almost

not really

Anyway Aria, the real reason you should play Souls games is because then you could do DS3 in the multiplayer randomizers!

now there's a good point actually

SeabassDebeste posted...

why are souls games online? aren't they single player games?

you can play co-op or invade/be invaded. Players also leave messages for each other that can help or mislead.

Indont care for the pvp stuff but enjoy the messages for what they are

the messages are basically essential for me, every game they develop new memes and iterate on the classics

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

So yeah, they COULD ignore both those issues and just let players do it, but its arguable that FromSofts intentional and specific design decisions are the entire reason Dark Souls even became popular. Theres literally no other game with this kind of fanbase in the genre, and at some point you should ask why that is.

In theory I have no issue with a pause, but the intensity of the fights and the thematic element of I need to get to safety or I literally cannot stop elevate it in a way that cant be understated.

When it first started catching on, how many times did you see viral videos of people sweatily beating Capra Demon? You walk into a closet and its on, in the next 5 minutes youre either going to win or die, and theres no other option or way to delay and figure out whats even going on.

For the Switch version of Dark Souls, putting the console to sleep pauses the game, so there's another way to do it if you like.

neonreaper posted...

you can play co-op or invade/be invaded. Players also leave messages for each other that can help or mislead.

Indont care for the pvp stuff but enjoy the messages for what they are

that seems quite interesting. i assume you don't have control over who your co-op partner is, or over who invades you?

SeabassDebeste posted...

that seems quite interesting. i assume you don't have control over who your co-op partner is, or over who invades you?

there's signs on the ground that you can interact with; you can choose to summon an ally (you only see their name and a pose), you can choose to summon a foe (usually for 1v1 pvp), and without interacting with a sign you can be invaded given certain prerequisites are met. in souls games it's having humanity, which gives you extra HP but it's a consumable that's relatively rare and lost on death. I forget how ER handles it

you generally never have to put up with pvp unless you opt into it basically. also there's a bit of matchmaking so you only fight foes roughly near your level

it's a bit more in-depth than that because like there's usually covenants that allow you to invade/protect in specific ways more easily (like a covenant that can be auto summoned when a host is invaded, or an extra invader that is hostile to everyone), but thems the basics

AriaOfBolo posted...

not really

definitely not

SeabassDebeste posted...

that seems quite interesting. i assume you don't have control over who your co-op partner is, or over who invades you?

You can set a password that makes it so you only see the summon signs of co-op partners with the same password.
You can also summon the invaders from summon signs and you get a glimpse of their build before you agree to summon them. Or the game can plop someone down into your world, separate from the sign. But you can only have so many people in your game world at once.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

When Nook said 'it's not about having fun' earlier he was correct.

that wasnt me who said that lol

This is the stupidest debate of all time. Just go play some Souls games guys. Stop criticizing what you dont understand.

Man I played through all of Dark Souls and don't even remember that I couldn't pause.

TomNook7 posted...

Just go play some Souls games guys

but they're not for me and how dare we expect otherwise

So I took some time to calm my emotions and I think it's important to say that Dark Souls is a game that's about ableism.

If that's something you disagree with on an ideological level that's fine. Nobody has the right to tell anyone else what they are or aren't capable of doing.

However I do believe that if someone wants to be ableist towards themselves that's perfectly okay too. The game's goal is to teach you that it's okay to do that.

All I was trying to say is that if you change the game, you're preventing people from discovering that for themselves and that's something I disagree with on an ideological level.

Debating ideologies is always messy, so again I'm sorry if I offended anyone with how explosive I was.

BetrayedTangy posted...

I think it's important to say that Dark Souls is a game that's about ableism.

lmao what

Dude my brother has muscular dystrophy, where it can be hard for him to move his hands, but even he found a way to beat bloodborne. Some things in life just require more effort from some people rather than others. That doesnt make it ableist.

tc can you just close this topic lmao. Im sorry we all let you down.

TomNook7 posted...

Dude my brother has muscular dystrophy, where it can be hard for him to move his hands, but even he found a way to beat bloodborne.

There are people that would say this is an ableist statement. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with those people, I'm just trying to look at it from that perspective is all.

RockyNoHands is quadriplegic and beat Elden Ring with his mouth.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

RockyNoHands is quadriplegic and beat Elden Ring with his mouth.

Yeah I had other examples I considered mentioning yesterday too, but I knew I would be called ableist if I did, which is why I wanted to end the debate.

sometimes it hurts to be a regular of this board

This where we are at huh. Hard games are discrimination?

Aecioo posted...

sometimes it hurts to be a regular of this board

you wanna go to Aldis?

all deez nutz

neonreaper posted...

you wanna go to Aldis?

all deez nutz

stop dragging this topic out.

Dragging deez nutz on yo face

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_GDXlqwZGwE

People are exaggerating how bad this topic was.

I wish this topic had a pause button

Paratroopa1 posted...

I wish this topic had a pause button

I'm telling you guys. You don't need to pause it. You can just exit to the topic list.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I wish this topic had a pause button

It's part of the artistic intent of the topic