Current Events > To circumcise or not?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Zonbei posted...

Right, so you never talk about it because it doesnt affect you, except to bring it up as a gotcha when arguing about circumcision. Thank you for proving my point.

You can say things like there are no proven benefits but youre literally just lying. Studies show otherwise. You may not think the benefits are pronounced enough to justify doing it, which is fair, but you shouldnt have to pretend there are none to make your case.

you mean the studies cited in the last topic that didnt hold up to peer review and were absolutely lambasted because of incompetent researching, unviable sampling, and bias in favor of outdated abrahamic religious influence and a capitalist medical industrial complex that profits off of circumcision procedures? those studies?

I have two sons. Don't cut them, chud bud.

ArsGoetia posted...

you mean the studies cited in the last topic that didnt hold up to peer review and were absolutely lambasted because of incompetent researching, unviable sampling, and bias in favor of outdated abrahamic religious influence and a capitalist medical industrial complex that profits off of circumcision procedures? those studies?

No clue, I dont spend all my time on gamefaqs arguing about foreskin so I doubt I was in the last topic, unless it was so long ago I forgot it even happened. Unless youre claiming thats all studies, in which case.. proof?

cool tactic though, just pointing at some thing I never said anything about and pretending it is what Im talking about. Which studies? I dunno, you tell me bud.

Zonbei posted...

No clue, I dont spend all my time on gamefaqs arguing about foreskin so I doubt I was in the last topic, unless it was so long ago I forgot it even happened. Unless youre claiming thats all studies, in which case.. proof?

cool tactic though, just pointing at some thing I never said anything about and pretending it is what Im talking about. Which studies? I dunno, you tell me bud.

you're the one that brought em up, pal

@NeonOPPAl

VirtuousWrath posted...

I have two sons. Don't cut them, chud bud.

As is your right as a parent to decide.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

Washed many uncircumcised penises, have you?

What a useless response.

ArsGoetia posted...

you're the one that brought em up, pal

Pretty sure I didnt bring up whatever studies youre vaguely referring to. Unless, again, youre referring to literally every study ever. Which seems unlikely, but hey, if you can prove it go ahead.

Zonbei posted...

Pretty sure I didnt bring up whatever studies youre vaguely referring to. Unless, again, youre referring to literally every study ever. Which seems unlikely, but hey, if you can prove it go ahead.

Or you could post these "studies" of yours.

Zonbei posted...

Pretty sure I didnt bring up whatever studies youre vaguely referring to. Unless, again, youre referring to literally every study ever. Which seems unlikely, but hey, if you can prove it go ahead.

you're the one that brought up "studies" to support your case that you're not linking lol
but
https://www.academia.edu/10553782/A_CDC-requested_Evidence-based_Critique_of_the_Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention_2014_
Draft_on_Male_Circumcision_How_Ideology_and_Selective_Science_Lead_to_Superficial_Culturally-biased_Recommendations_by_the_CDC

Zonbei posted...

everyone I have ever talked to about this has said its more work.

Man, you guys really lead strange lives.

This is the first time in my life that I'm in a discussion about washing dicks.

I mean, how do these conversations in real life start?

• "Hey man, how are ya doing?"
• "Fine, fine. Hey, how long does it take you to wash your dick?"

Zonbei posted...

not characterized by significantly higher rates. Correct. Slightly higher rates. Thats why this is an elective procedure with pros and cons on both sides, and thus a personal choice for parents.

What are the STD rates for Europe, compared to those of the US?

DrizztLink posted...

Or you could post these "studies" of yours.

could! Wont. Ive done enough research in this topic already for people who cant use Google and who arent going to believe anything thats said anyways. Its telling that the anti-circumcision people can just make up whatever shit they want like its fact though. Nothing I said actually relies on the studies anyways, unless youre just straight up disagreeing with the medical consensus about circumcision for some reason.

Tanthalas posted...

Man, you guys really lead strange lives.

This is the first time in my life that I'm in a discussion about washing dicks.

I mean, how do these conversations in real life start?

* "Hey man, how are ya doing?"
* "Fine, fine. Hey, how long does it take you to wash your dick?"

I talk about dicks with friends and coworkers all the time. What kind of prude ass weirdos do you work with? I'm serious

Zonbei posted...

unless youre just straight up disagreeing with the medical consensus about circumcision for some reason.

america disagrees with the medical consensus lmfao

ai123 posted...

What are the STD rates for Europe, compared to those of the US?

pretty sure I straight up posted a link to a study in the UK. This is what I mean. Why even bother? Also, comparing direct rates is meaningless, since youre pretending the only difference between the countries is circumcision. And not, I dunno, their public health care or other factors.

Here. This is the last bit of googling Im going to do for anyone here. Have some colors.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/956b7900.jpg

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/4/4bd2772d.jpg

Zonbei posted...

not characterized by significantly higher rates

Do you know what "significantly" means in terms of statistics? Usually it means that there's, at least, less than a 5% chance that the differences you're seeing are not just chance.

Statistically, slightly does not exist.

ArsGoetia posted...

america disagrees with the medical consensus lmfao

The medical consensus is that it has benefits, but theyre minor enough that the possible complications mean that its a personal choice for parents. Im not disagreeing with that. Im pretty sure America isnt disagreeing with that. Are you disagreeing with that?

Also the whole "it takes longer to wash" is such a joke. I can wash it in literally two seconds. It is like washing your ears and then making a big deal about washing your earlobe too.

Hell no. Not only is it barbaric, but why would you make more work for yourself keeping a wound clean on a newborn

Zonbei posted...

The medical consensus is that it has benefits, but theyre minor enough that the possible complications mean that its a personal choice for parents. Im not disagreeing with that. Im pretty sure America isnt disagreeing with that. Are you disagreeing with that?

thats the american opinion, which as the study ive linked shows the cdc consensus is heavily biased by ideological and religious influence and whose research is incredibly flawed
america is one of few developed nations that advocate for circumcision, even amongst those whose citizens predominately practice abrahamic religion

Tanthalas posted...

Do you know what "significantly" means in terms of statistics? Usually it means that there's, at least, less than a 5% chance that the differences you're seeing are not just chance.

Statistically, slightly does not exist.

Oh we are doing the semantics game. Fun. Medical consensus is that the benefits exist. Clearly the statistical evidence (whether that be in controlled studies or in general) is there. My usages of significantly and slightly were not meant to be taken in the sense you are taking them. You cant directly compare rates of STDS and say oh its because of circumcision, and anyone who thinks you can isnt thinking very hard.

This topic makes my braincells commit suicide.

Expanding a bit more, my wife is vehemently against circumcision.

Personally, I'm cut and I don't mind. I don't view myself as a victim nor do I see the practice as inherently barbaric.

But at the same time, Idk, I'm happy we didn't do it for either of our sons. I guess it's hard for me to put into words.

But yeah, don't cut your boy unless there's a medically necessary reason to.

It's interesting they tell you not to bathe the baby either. I think the hospital told us, no baths until the umbilical cord falls out which is like 2 weeks anyway. And man, that thing gets gross before it falls off lol. There's that stage where it's like just barely clinging on.

Zonbei posted...

somebody already said this exact thing because youre all boring as hell, so Im going to respond the same way, with an addition.

what if I have? What are you, some kind of homophobe? Or do you just hate healthcare workers?

No, what Im saying is that youre completely full of shit.

ArsGoetia posted...

thats the american opinion, which as the study ive linked shows the cdc consensus is heavily biased by ideological and religious influence and whose research is incredibly flawed
america is one of few developed nations that advocate for circumcision, even amongst those whose citizens predominately practice abrahamic religion

damn, if only the CDC had responded to these sorts of allegations years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478224/

I cant find one specifically for Howe, probably because no one cares what a single pediatric doctor thinks.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

No, what Im saying is that youre completely full of shit.

Based on..?

Skyscraper101 posted...

Also the whole "it takes longer to wash" is such a joke. I can wash it in literally two seconds. It is like washing your ears and then making a big deal about washing your earlobe too.

hey man, I dont have a foreskin, Im just going from what Ive been told by people who do. At the very least, knowledge of how to clean appropriately is required, knowledge you arent born with, and that can lead to issues in people who are, well, you know. Gross. Maybe the difference is negligible for most people; all I know is it sounds like Ive got it easier.

Zonbei posted...

Based on..?

Your posts

Zonbei posted...

damn, if only the CDC had responded to these sorts of allegations years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5478224/

I cant find one specifically for Howe, probably because no one cares what a single pediatric doctor thinks.

"i linked a study rebutting a completely different study to the one you posted, and since i cant find one to rebut the one in your post, youre wrong"
you have more than a half dozen people disagreeing with you here and just keep doubling down on even stupider shit
fuck off lol

Zonbei posted...

Based on..?

Based on your false statements.

NeonOPPAl posted...

I talk about dicks with friends and coworkers all the time. What kind of prude ass weirdos do you work with? I'm serious

So, comparing notes about washing your dick is something that you've actually discussed in real life?

Tanthalas posted...

So, comparing notes about washing your dick is something that you've actually discussed in real life?

Unironically yeah

My partner is Jewish and our son will be raised Jewish, and even we couldn't settle on anything but letting the kid make his own choice when he's older.

Zonbei posted...

You cant directly compare rates of STDS and say oh its because of circumcision, and anyone who thinks you can isnt thinking very hard.

Yet, you keep doing that.

ArsGoetia posted...

"i linked a study rebutting a completely different study to the one you posted, and since i cant find one to rebut the one in your post, youre wrong"
you have more than a half dozen people disagreeing with you here and just keep doubling down on even stupider shit
fuck off lol

oh no! Half a dozen people disagreeing with me on a divisive issue?! On gamefaqs!? I must be wrong, especially if arsgoetia is disagreeing with me. A person who has definitely never said anything wildly stupid.

The rebuttal I linked covers common and similar claims to the ones youre talking about. Youre wrong because youre wrong, this was just some extra info. The person you cited is a single pediatric doctor whose claims amount to yeah basically its got pros and cons but consent so its bad. Did the CDC fabricate things or have bias? Maybe, although I dont see any actual evidence of that. Is the CDC the only medical body that has come to this consensus? Nope. It sure isnt. Youre only pretending it is. Does the fact religion has tried to push this mean the facts arent still on the side of its got some minor benefits? Nope.

You can argue as much as you want and provide a single pediatrician saying its not worth it as much as you want. The fact remains that there are benefits, and whether theyre worth it or not is up to the parents of the child, as with almost every other medical decision.

Zonbei posted...

hey man, I dont have a foreskin, Im just going from what Ive been told by people who do. At the very least, knowledge of how to clean appropriately is required, knowledge you arent born with, and that can lead to issues in people who are, well, you know. Gross. Maybe the difference is negligible for most people; all I know is it sounds like Ive got it easier.

It is more I don't understand how you would wash your dick but not wash your foreskin. Nobody "taught" me how to wash my foreskin. When I had the intelligence to start washing myself, I didn't stare at my foreskin in bewilderment. I washed it just the same as I did the rest of my dick, my ballsack, my armpits, my butt. I didn't wash my dick then STOP at my foreskin in fear of what it might be. Just like if you washed your ears you wouldn't just randomly stop at washing your earlobes, and I bet nobody in the history of this planet has ever been fine with washing their ears and then start bitching about how fucking annoying and difficult it is to wash their earlobes.

My point is a person who doesn't wash their foreskin is actually just a person who doesn't wash their dick. Nothing to do with foreskin.

Tanthalas posted...

Yet, you keep doing that.

Havent done that once. Ive said circumcision can lower the incidence of STI spread as compared to non circumcised people. This doesnt necessarily make any given rate lower than any given other rate geographically, because there are other factors.

basically, 100-2= 98. 10-1= 8. The 2 there is still the larger subtraction even though the final number is bigger. I dont understand why Im having to explain basic math.

ai123 posted...

You don't really need an argument against a non-consensual medical procedure. Not doing it should be the default position.

You need a bloody good one for it. Hopefully better than 'you don't need to wash as thoroughly' or 'I think it looks nicer', or 'it may protect very slightly against some conditions that are more rare than the complications'.

And then the arguments against careen of into tangents calling it rape, or some dogwhistle about Rabbi's.

Skyscraper101 posted...

It is more I don't understand how you would wash your dick but not wash your foreskin. Nobody "taught" me how to wash my foreskin. When I had the intelligence to start washing myself, I didn't stare at my foreskin in bewilderment. I washed it just the same as I did the rest of my dick, my ballsack, my armpits, my butt. I didn't wash my dick then STOP at my foreskin in fear of what it might be. Just like if you washed your ears you wouldn't just randomly stop at washing your earlobes, and I bet nobody in the history of this planet has ever been fine with washing their ears and then start bitching about how fucking annoying and difficult it is to wash their earlobes.

My point is a person who doesn't wash their foreskin is actually just a person who doesn't wash their dick. Nothing to do with foreskin.

I mean. If you washed your dick and didnt pull the foreskin back and wash under it, (I know its not really under but you know what I mean), then youre not really washing it. Whereas that extra bit of attention isnt necessary when youre circumcised.

its a fact that not every human being naturally knows how to wash every part of their body, I dunno what to tell you there. Its also a fact men exist that dont wash their dicks correctly, including the main issue being not washing their uncircumcised dick correctly. My strongest source there is that I know women who have complained of this very issue with uncircumcised men.

but also there is the literal existence of the word Smegma. A word which refers to buildup under the foreskin that doesnt exist in circumcised men.

so let me put it another way: Ive literally never had to clean smegma and Im happy that way.

Zonbei posted...

could! Wont.

So these "Studies" come from your ass.

DrizztLink posted...

So these "Studies" come from your ass.

Yes, the only possible outcome of me not providing you the studies is that theyre made up. Youve caught me.

Zonbei posted...

Havent done that once. Ive said circumcision can lower the incidence of STI spread as compared to non circumcised people. This doesnt necessarily make any given rate lower than any given other rate geographically, because there are other factors.

basically, 100-2= 98. 10-1= 8. The 2 there is still the larger subtraction even though the final number is bigger. I dont understand why Im having to explain basic math.

You know theres these things called condoms that also prevent stis? Still doesn't change the fact that those benefits do not outweigh cutting something off a baby because there's a slight chance to prevent sti transmissions. Don't want a sti or hiv? Wear a condom. They fit on cut and uncut guys. Like I said how about we give the kid his choice instead of arbitrarily taking it away from him because of the stupid bs of "its cleaner, it's easier to wash, etc." Stop cutting your fucking kids. Cool your cut and your happy with it. Doesn't mean others would be.

Zonbei posted...

Yes, the only possible outcome of me not providing you the studies is that theyre made up. Youve caught me.

It's not my fault you want to make claims and then cry when people tell you to back it up.

Ball's entirely in your court on this one.

Zonbei posted...

I mean. If you washed your dick and didnt pull the foreskin back and wash under it, (I know its not really under but you know what I mean), then youre not really washing it. Whereas that extra bit of attention isnt necessary when youre circumcised.

its a fact that not every human being naturally knows how to wash every part of their body, I dunno what to tell you there. Its also a fact men exist that dont wash their dicks correctly, including the main issue being not washing their uncircumcised dick correctly. My strongest source there is that I know women who have complained of this very issue with uncircumcised men.

but also there is the literal existence of the word Smegma. A word which refers to buildup under the foreskin that doesnt exist in circumcised men.

so let me put it another way: Ive literally never had to clean smegma and Im happy that way.

Sorry but cut men can produce smegma.

Zonbei posted...

its got some minor benefits

do you realize how asinine this sounds?
youre advocating for removing peoples bodily autonomy and cutting off part of their genitalia for things that dont matter in developed nations and to save a few fucking seconds in the shower

Nirvanas_Nox posted...

You know theres these things called condoms that also prevent stis? Still doesn't change the fact that those benefits do not outweigh cutting something off a baby because there's a slight chance to prevent sti transmissions. Don't want a sti or hiv? Wear a condom. They fit on cut and uncut guys. Like I said how about we give the kid his choice instead of arbitrarily taking it away from him because of the stupid bs of "its cleaner, it's easier to wash, etc." Stop cutting your fucking kids. Cool your cut and your happy with it. Doesn't mean others would be.

Condoms do in fact exist. Unsure how that means the benefits of circumcision dont. The benefits exist, which has been my main point here, aside from countering literally made up things like 100 boys a year die in the US from circumcision. Whether those benefits are worth it is a decision for parents to make. Many medical choices (and other choices) are made for children without them having a choice. This isnt magically different because its about a penis.

DrizztLink posted...

It's not my fault you want to make claims and then cry when people tell you to back it up.

Ball's entirely in your court on this one.

It is however your fault that youre pretending Im the only person in this topic, let alone gamefaqs at large, pointing to outside evidence without providing sources with every single claim ever.

This isnt a structured debate. Ive provided plenty of things and theyve been ignored or shot down, and Im lazy so Im not going to keep doing it, especially when its being demanded by people i already didnt respect before this topic who are acting in bad faith.

ArsGoetia posted...

do you realize how asinine this sounds?
youre advocating for removing peoples bodily autonomy and cutting off part of their genitalia for things that dont matter in developed nations and to save a few fucking seconds in the shower

Im not advocating for removing peoples bodily autonomy. Thats already a thing we have all agreed is okay when it comes to babies and children, a long time ago. Im advocating for parents being able to make medical decisions for their children, and pointing out there are benefits to the medical procedure because people said there arent.

feel free to start listening at any time.

Zonbei posted...

It is however your fault that youre pretending Im the only person in this topic, let alone gamefaqs at large, pointing to outside evidence without providing sources with every single claim ever.

This isnt a structured debate. Ive provided plenty of things and theyve been ignored or shot down, and Im lazy so Im not going to keep doing it, especially when its being demanded by people i already didnt respect before this topic who are acting in bad faith.

Whole lotta words to say "I'm upset you asked for a source and I'm going to blame you for it."