Been a while since I've been able to make one of these. Maybe some kind of shake-up is in order because player quality really has gone out of the window as of late. I wouldn't be opposed to perhaps a 'celebrated' host jumping the queue and encouraging some of the better players to play again, assuming they have the time, and give B8 Mafia a shot in the arm. Either that or put it on hiatus again until it's a more fresh proposition. I know you all can't wait to unleash your mafia lovechildren to the world, but surely it's no fun hosting a game only to have it go belly up expectation-wise, and I trust you're all smart enough not to be counting down the games until your turn thinking, "Yeah those games sucked, but mine will be different!".
Ongoing God of War (23) - Ulti
The Queue Bible - masterplum (mid-June) Final Fantasy VII (23) - eaedwards Violin Concerto Mafia (20) - Mant/Tom (Summer) NFL (16) - Regaro (August 7th) 80s Saturday Morning Cartoon Mafia (23) - Jmast/Peaf (Aug) Poker (23) - ScareChan Battlestar Galactica (20) - GDiffuser Guardian Heroes - Blade Flavorless III (16) - SpeedYoshi North Pole - Dante (December 12th) Community (10) - Yoshifan Fire Emblem (24) - Stan Crime Mafia (18) - VI Chaos Mafia II (19) - Drak Dexter (17) - KBM -------Boko game (whenever he's ready) Summer Contest 2 (23) - Ed Bellis (whenever he's ready) English Lit (23) - Han (whenever he's ready) Inception (15) - FFD (ready to go, if needed) Dr. Horrible (16) - FFD (ready to go, if needed)
Games below the line can go whenever they're ready. FFD's two games at the bottom are "ready any time".
Under Construction Advance Wars - Cokes Anime 2 - Tom / CPU Arrested Development (est. 14) - Neon/Boko (estimated July) B8 Mafia - Kloggmonkey Chrono Trigger - Oneills (Axalon) Coen Bros. - Cokes Contemporary Music - Walrus Deck of Cards - Oddity Doctor Who [2005] - Chris Dota Mafia 2 - Ulti Final Fantasy VI - Baku Final Fantasy IX - Boko Gaga Outfits - Max Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (19) - Jmast Guild Wars (20) - Articuno Mafia Fakeclaims - Aecioo Martin Scorsese - Cokes Mercenaries 3 - Drakeryn Metroid-VeryInsane Mortal Kombat - yoshi Pro Wrestling - sonten Seinfeld - Wigs Sin City - Spiral SMFFFC - Jmast Super Smash Bros Mafia Melee - Ulti Snack Food - Peaf Super Street Fighter 4 - Biscuit/GDiff Supernatural - Cloud and Squall Thanksgiving (15) -- Jmast The Wire - SpeedYoshi/SBell Wheels of Time - jdizzy WoW - ???
Games keep having to get played if there's to be any new blood infused. And you can only get better at mafia through experience and the best way to learn is by playing games with the elite players. Elite players only playing games with each other does nothing to help the community as a whole, IMHO. <_<
And I do think the last several months have produced a number of good new players who have steadily improved and are willing to play (Inviso, XIII, and SBell all come to mind). The problem the last couple months of late is the dropoff of people during signups - something the summer will hopefully rectify. >_>
Bible - masterplum (mid-June) Final Fantasy VII (23) - eaedwards Poker (23) - ScareChan Chaos Mafia II (19) - Drak (assuming this is better than that.... thing that happened awhile back) Dexter (17) - KBM
Count me in for these, I'm pretty excited for. The rest, I could give or take the theme, so maybe I'll stick to these.
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||Currently playing: FFXIV, KotOR, LA Noire, God of War III, Mortal Kombat, MvC 3 Recently beat: Portal 2, God of War I & II, Gears of War 1 & 2||
OK, screw WoW mafia. I've been working on it all day today, and I've come to realize something. I'm having to spend too much time looking things up, second guessing my knowledge, and simply trying to come up with ideas.
It's taught me that if you're going to host a game, it needs to be something you've played the crap out of, something you've beaten forwards and backwards, you can talk for hours about without ever hitting a topic that you're unsure of, that you can probably quote half the script of the entire game. It needs to be something you can confidently say "I know more than you do about this game. Period." to just about anybody.
In other words, Oblivion mafia is happening.
-- I hate all ugly people, regardless of gender. ~ thundersheep
Newbie games are definitely helpful to the community as a whole though. Toss in a handful of average players and a vet or two and it's the best way to recruit/improve very weak players.
-- I hate all ugly people, regardless of gender. ~ thundersheep
Question: when building a game from the ground up, what's the basic process? Do you want to make basically the whole set-up of roles and then go and add flavor to it, or start by listing all the characters you might put in the game, and try to build a set of roles from that?
-- I hate all ugly people, regardless of gender. ~ thundersheep
From: turbopuns | #014 Question: when building a game from the ground up, what's the basic process? Do you want to make basically the whole set-up of roles and then go and add flavor to it, or start by listing all the characters you might put in the game, and try to build a set of roles from that?
When I designed both Umineko and NFL, I had a couple roles that were "yeah, I think I want to use this", and then I worked from there, building the setup, and balancing around those roles. Flavor is less important, but sometimes you're going to want to tweak your setup a bit to improve how it fits the flavor.
From: turbopuns | #014 Question: when building a game from the ground up, what's the basic process? Do you want to make basically the whole set-up of roles and then go and add flavor to it, or start by listing all the characters you might put in the game, and try to build a set of roles from that?
Usually, I'll be playing a game or watching a tv show/movie and my brain will go into mafia mode for a minute and make a connection between a character and a role, and then from there other connections keep springing up, and after a while I'm like halfway to a game. Then I list any character I don't have a firm idea on, put possible roles in the next column, and craft a setup from that.
Don't mistake that for me saying we need 'elitist' games. Activity-wise they're not necessarily any better than normal games. The best games have a good mix of players who know how to scumhunt and understand mafia down to a fine detail, along with players who are happy to contribute with posts and keep activity high. A few players have both of these traits.
Of course the best games of all have no (or very few) bad players at all! But yeah, you learn by doing. People need to find their own niche of how to play well, rather than copy others. For example, you would generally consider Chris, myself and Lopen amongst the best players on the board, yet none of us play mafia anything like the others.
turbopuns posted... Question: when building a game from the ground up, what's the basic process? Do you want to make basically the whole set-up of roles and then go and add flavor to it, or start by listing all the characters you might put in the game, and try to build a set of roles from that?
Yeah, what Reg said.
I have basically four setups done - two complete with flavor written and two with the roles and setup done and the flavor half finished. In pretty much every case I started with a couple roles I wanted in the game and built the game around them, tailoring the flavor to fit the roles. But you can't sacrifice balance to fit the flavor - the balance has to come first or the game simply won't work, no matter how cool your flavor is.
I think I enjoy thinking about and designing different setups as much as I enjoy playing the game itself. Working on mafia setups seems to be my current default activity when I need a break from science writing. o_O
-- I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.
turbopuns posted... OK, screw WoW mafia. I've been working on it all day today, and I've come to realize something. I'm having to spend too much time looking things up, second guessing my knowledge, and simply trying to come up with ideas.
It's taught me that if you're going to host a game, it needs to be something you've played the crap out of, something you've beaten forwards and backwards, you can talk for hours about without ever hitting a topic that you're unsure of, that you can probably quote half the script of the entire game. It needs to be something you can confidently say "I know more than you do about this game. Period." to just about anybody.
In other words, Oblivion mafia is happening.
This is pretty much exactly what I can do with Guardian Heroes, as unknown as it is.
Though I am debating between switching its format now... Which would probably increase it from 14 to well over 20... Though I have to consider what happens in things like Killer7 with a theme not enough people know.
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Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104 Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
Meow1000 posted... turbopuns posted... OK, screw WoW mafia. I've been working on it all day today, and I've come to realize something. I'm having to spend too much time looking things up, second guessing my knowledge, and simply trying to come up with ideas.
It's taught me that if you're going to host a game, it needs to be something you've played the crap out of, something you've beaten forwards and backwards, you can talk for hours about without ever hitting a topic that you're unsure of, that you can probably quote half the script of the entire game. It needs to be something you can confidently say "I know more than you do about this game. Period." to just about anybody.
In other words, Oblivion mafia is happening.
This is pretty much exactly what I can do with Guardian Heroes, as unknown as it is.
Though I am debating between switching its format now... Which would probably increase it from 14 to well over 20... Though I have to consider what happens in things like Killer7 with a theme not enough people know.
Yeah...I wasted days getting nowhere with WoW mafia. I've been thinking about Oblivion mafia for like 30 minutes and I've got like a billion percent more accomplished.
-- I hate all ugly people, regardless of gender. ~ thundersheep
I consider Lopen one of the best guys on the board at playing town, and he's decent as scum. He doesn't play often but when he does he's insightful and pragmatic, a little like a more bombastic version of neon. I can think of a few examples of him playing well (Type-MOON, Ashe's Room, FMA), and I can't recall him ever really having a poor game.
Luis_Sera89 posted... Don't mistake that for me saying we need 'elitist' games. Activity-wise they're not necessarily any better than normal games. The best games have a good mix of players who know how to scumhunt and understand mafia down to a fine detail, along with players who are happy to contribute with posts and keep activity high. A few players have both of these traits.
Of course the best games of all have no (or very few) bad players at all! But yeah, you learn by doing. People need to find their own niche of how to play well, rather than copy others. For example, you would generally consider Chris, myself and Lopen amongst the best players on the board, yet none of us play mafia anything like the others.
Oh sure. But I do try and learn from everyone I play with - quite often someone will point out something I didn't see that I always keep in mind the next time around. And as you say, every good player will see things in a different way. Playing with Drak in FFT was particularly illuminating. Neon has opened my eyes several times too.
Never played with Professor Lopen as town, but I would very much like to at some point. <_<
-- The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.
Luis_Sera89 posted... I can think of a few examples of him playing well (Type-MOON, Ashe's Room,
What this teaches me is that Lopen may be decent town, but he can't beat a scum team with me on it.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com//wesker.gif
What's that? I can't hear you over all this WINNING.
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If you wake up at a different time, in a different place, could you wake up as a different person? [HERO'S PLUNGE] http://img.imgcake.com//wesker.gif
1. inactive/under-engaged players 2. players having yelling matches that go nowhere 3. lynches happen due to momentum -3a. players lynch easy lynches, convincing themselves to vote for easy lynches -3b. players spend too much time trying to convince scum why they are scum
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
From: turbopuns | #008 It's taught me that if you're going to host a game, it needs to be something you've played the crap out of, something you've beaten forwards and backwards, you can talk for hours about without ever hitting a topic that you're unsure of, that you can probably quote half the script of the entire game. It needs to be something you can confidently say "I know more than you do about this game. Period." to just about anybody.
Somewhat disagree.
A themed game does not have to remain true to the heart of the content it is themed behind. It is mafia after all, and simply playing the game out renders any conception of plot points and characters in said themes moot. Themes are used to draw players in, especially those who are like what you just described, not replay the theme in mafia style.
Theme knowledge is of course important so that you don't blaspheme the universe of the theme, but I would hardly state it to be paramount to making a good (or even balanced game). It's mostly there for hype.
Usually the best way to start with a theme game is to come up with an alignment split right off the bat. How would you divide the factions? After that, start with a core focus mechanic of how you want your game. Is it going to revolve around standard role, or are there other mechanics that need to be considered? Thus far, theme would have very little impact in actually balancing the game. Once you have the rough draft set out, that is when you apply theme knowledge via flavor writing and role dispersal. With imagination, you can literally turn any character into any role, simply by twisting around your own vision of how the character should/could be portrayed.
Using a pretty broad example, let's assume a Star Wars themed Mafia; say you want a Doctor Role. -Luke could be a Doctor because he protects people with the Force, repelling anyone who comes near his target. -Han could be a Doctor because he smuggles a player onto the Millennium Falcon for the night. -Vader could be the Doctor for the same reasons as Luke, only using the Dark side. -R2-D2 could be the Doctor because he is able to open and close doors, keeping people away from his target.
The list goes on, and is only limited by your imagination. In fact, it helps to have a very fertile imagination so as to combat the plague known as metagame.
If you try going into a game saying, "I want this game because I want this character to do this!" it will make for a bad first step towards balancing in the end. Look at the project as a whole, then fill in the roles with your own imagination afterwards.
Tree Stump has never been utilised particularly well. I was TS in P3 and stumped myself D1 so I could see out the rest of the game, but it didn't really pay off. It's surprisingly hard to effectively communicate your point when you can't put it in bold with a solid vote.
It may just be the case that we have to have smaller games until the board proves it can handle 20+ ones. This was kind of enacted a while ago due to general inactivity, but now I kind of think we need it because of the lack of confidence in a town successfully lynching 5+ scum in one game.
From: Luis_Sera89 | #039 It may just be the case that we have to have smaller games until the board proves it can handle 20+ ones. This was kind of enacted a while ago due to general inactivity, but now I kind of think we need it because of the lack of confidence in a town successfully lynching 5+ scum in one game.
I'm in support of this, but again, look at the next few games on the queue (Sans the unknown Bible and NFL) <_<
Jmast7 posted... Games keep having to get played if there's to be any new blood infused. And you can only get better at mafia through experience and the best way to learn is by playing games with the elite players. Elite players only playing games with each other does nothing to help the community as a whole, IMHO. <_<
And I do think the last several months have produced a number of good new players who have steadily improved and are willing to play (Inviso, XIII, and SBell all come to mind). The problem the last couple months of late is the dropoff of people during signups - something the summer will hopefully rectify. >_>
I wouldn't necessarily call myself good. Probably could have benefited from a Newbie game, myself.
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(\__/) (='.'=] < I may be negative but at least I'm not a hypocrite
Well, we've got time before the end of GoW. All it needs is a general agreement that enough is enough, and we get (host) to step in with a suitable game. I don't how plum sees things (other than he is "excited" to host), but maybe he would prefer it if he knew his game was being released into an environment where it's potential was maxed through good play, even if that meant delaying it a while.
I strongly support the notion of smaller games before larger games - the #1 reason I don't play as much anymore is time constraint - I don't want to drag down a game because I can't fully commit, but now with summer coming up, I want to get back in to it and small games would totally help
also, in general players should be more willing to take criticism and advice from other players - literally no player is perfect, so there's always something you can do better, so instead of shrugging things off, everyone should be more willing to pull themselves off any high horse and try to better their play
And I'm not saying we need elite playerlists. My point is more that people are mired in early game trappings, and that don't really lead to good play or good habits. Too many early games, too much useless info for town, too much good info for scum, activity problems, content problems, etc.
We can also factor in all the killing power people like to put into games, and how that usually gets rid of the better town players early.
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
From: neonreaper | #048 We can also factor in all the killing power people like to put into games, and how that usually gets rid of the better town players early.
That's just strategy though, and aside from how impractical it is, you shouldn't take measure against that one.
I'm not saying to reduce killing power, but a smaller game should involve less of it balance-wise, while the same hard number of GOOD town players is probably going to stay the same.
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Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter? Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.