From: StealThisSheen | #399 ExThaNemesis posted... What's this argument about anyway? That Red/Blue aren't drawing votes based on the whole series?
He's basically arguing that it doesn't matter that it's Red/Blue, and it could be any "rivalry" from Pokemon and still work because nobody differentiates between them since they're "all the same."
That's not what I said.
I said that Red/Blue gain strength from every Pokemon game because the other Pokemon games don't distinguish the dynamic enough.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
ExThaNemesis posted... What's this argument about anyway? That Red/Blue aren't drawing votes based on the whole series?
He's basically arguing that it doesn't matter that it's Red/Blue, and it could be any "rivalry" from Pokemon and still work because nobody differentiates between them since they're "all the same."
EDIT: It stemmed from the fact that he said rivalries from multiple games do better than rivalries from one game, and I said Red/Blue IS from one game. And then he said they're all the same and I only listed a technicality.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
And I never said "only Red/Blue fans are voting for Red/Blue."
The argument started because you said "Nintendo wins because they do the same crap over and over, and rivalries from multiple games do better than rivalries from one game."
And I said Red/Blue IS from one game.
And you said I simply stated a technicality because Pokemon rivalries are "all the same" and "never change."
And then we explained they weren't the same and they do change.
And then I have no idea what you changed your argument to.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
I just said that if they're doing it for Pokemon, they're doing it for everything, and Pokemon isn't mutually exclusive to this.
The difference is that other games I'm saying that this applies to are more distinct. Plotwise and characterwise.
Put it this way.
Have you ever seen someone say "I dislike Red/Blue but I like *name any other trainer rivalry here* "
Now... have you ever seen someone say "I dislike Cloud/Sephiroth but I like Squall/Seifer"? Because I've seen it a ton.
That's the difference. The games are highly derivative of each other. There aren't any sort of rifts between Pokemon games based on plot or the trainers. Rifts, if any, are based on the Pokemon designs being lame or the games not adding enough between iterations.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
If we're being fair, technically Red/Blue has shown up in the first four gens of pokemon and Red appeared in Brawl. Not sure if Blue acknowledges Red at all in GSC or HGSS but both characters are there.
The Poke rivalries are a lot more similar than Cloud/Seph, but Red/Blue are also pretty distinctive, and Red/Blue got representation in the TV Show that none of the other Poke rivalries got.
--
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/ExTha/10and14.jpg "I was wrong." - SmartMuffin
Like, I don't even know how the argument went on so long, because I wasn't even talking about voting.
I was just saying how Red/Blue as a rivalry is only in one game (with reference, but no expansion, in GSC). You then told me it didn't matter since every Pokerivalry is the same, and I explained to you how they aren't.
You then basically tried to tell me I was wrong.
Don't even know how it went beyond that.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
For the record, the games I feel that the lack of series voting applies to (that I can think of off the top of my head):
Final Fantasy games MGS games RE Games
Because the protagonist and rival and the plot change from game to game.
I don't see what's weird about thinking a series that doesn't have rivalries that are as distinct from game to game gets more votes based off the series. Basically you're trying to sell that the Pokemon games are as different plot/characterwise as the Final Fantasy series or MGS, which is pretty lol.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
"Every Pokerivalry is the same they never change lololol" "No, they're not. They do change. Here's how:" "LOL YOU'RE SAYING THEY'RE AS DIFFERENT AS MGS AND FF."
Yeah, this is where I leave the topic.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
It's funny because I was entirely talking about voting. I don't know where you got the impression that I wasn't given I was talking about contest strength.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
You say Pokemon rivalries change, think I'm saying they don't change at all I'm saying they change, but they don't change nearly enough to cause the voter rift that other franchises will
And somehow you didn't realize I was talking about voting, despite you know, my whole reason for going on the tangent was talking about contest strength
Overdefensive pokezealots lol.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
That's a technicality. Red/Blue represents the Pokemon franchise, basically. It's not like the rivalry formula ever changes in those games.
Like uh... Gold vs Silver is diet Red vs Blue but the similarity is still there.
And I've played most of the Pokemon games. The dynamic doesn't change much. The same general idea is there. The closest you've got to change is Diamond vs Pearl where they work together for a few things, but for most of the game it's basically just a very weak version of Red vs Blue.
You were definitely talking about the games and nothing to do with voting. You didn't change to talking about voting until after 4 people told you that you were wrong.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
From: Lopen | #367 Also I will deny Cloud and Sephiroth are weakening. Right here. Their performance in this contest means nothing-- rivalries in this contest that only have one or two games behind them have done poorly all around.
Nintendo looks stronger in this contest because they're a company that thrives on feeding you the same crap over and over, and thus have rivalries that show up in many many games, which is apparently the criteria that voters are using to determine whether a rivalry is good or not. So they're going to do well here because voters are dumb.
Hell, Skyrim beating Skyward Sword in a HYPE poll should turn you away from that idea.
How is this not talking about contest strength. Unless you thought for some reason I thought that Red/Blue was in every Pokemon game?
Like this is basically a "oh you didn't say IYO after every post you must not have meant it was your opinion." The context was contest strength so I'm not sure why I have to explicitly say contest strength every time.
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
I said that The dynamic doesn't change much. The same general idea is there in the things you quoted right there. I'm not backpedaling. The general idea is the same, and I stand by that. You can pull out your notes from your Pokemon plot dissertation and break every rivalry down and show how different they are but I'm um, still disagreeing with you that the general idea is very different.
The general idea being the same is same enough to cause them to get franchise voted in the contest where Cloud/Seph won't, even if they're not exactly the same.
Does that make sense?
-- No problem! This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
today's match is pretty cool and allllmost redeems the contest until you remember that it's just another Nintendo character rising up to beat another non-Nintendo character.
it's also kinda funny that the only match of note this contest is one that doesn't really count.
I'm pretty sure most people these days would take Pikachu over Crono.
GameFAQs contests have always been a nostalgiafest, but the definition of a "nostalgia" game has changed. Like...I remember when FF8 was too new to be a nostalgia game, and squall was weak. Hell, I remember back when people on B8 generally had a low opinion of the N64--it was that kiddie system. (Nowadays it's a nostalgia system and damn near every N64 game is well-liked).
--
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision
How can someone likes today's match?Anyway yeah of course the old contests were better.Not because FF won but because you knew that Zelda was just there ready to beat it.Now do you expect anyhing that can beat Mario,Link,OOT,Super Mario and such?Don't think so.Also imagine if CT and FF VII had remakes!Man what power would they gain!
--
GameFaqs is NOT the place to go for relationship advice.Nobody here gets any action unless it is their right or left hand.Including me.~Dawn and Dusk~
So if Pokemon wins...I guess rivalry factor really matters.No way Red or Blue beat Sephiroth or Cloud.I mean Red lost to Megaman.As for Link I guess SS came.
--
GameFaqs is NOT the place to go for relationship advice.Nobody here gets any action unless it is their right or left hand.Including me.~Dawn and Dusk~
If Red isn't way way stronger next contest than he was last 1v1 contest I'll be shocked. I really don't think this is all rivalry factor. I don't necessarily think he will still be able to beat Cloud/Seph but he won't be going even with Ocelot and he'll probably be stronger than MMX.
--
Starcraft is my life, so without it I wouldn't exist. - Artosis
LOLContests posted... The problem with newer characters isn't that new games aren't popular here, but that the most popular newer games tend to be:
A) From older series or SSB which is made up of characters from older series B) Not very character oriented
The only Near Elites or higher on this site are from long running series or character heavy games (AKA jRPGS.) Most series will struggle to gain any sort of legacy in ten years, and if jRPGS aren't popular anymore there's no other source to draw popular characters from.
True. Most of the midcarders who weren't in the 2002 Contest at least had had games out prior to that contest (e.g. every Mario character other than Mario himself, our new Pokémon overlords, Ganondorf, Tifa and Vincent, Auron...) I can really only think of two midcarders whose debut game came within the past ten years--Sora, who is already pushing it as the "Kingdom Hearts Factor" hit in the second character battle, and Amaterasu.
UltimaterializerX posted... Games contest, no generational divine, Tournament of Champions so OOT/FF7/MM aren't in it.
Bang, any one of 15-20 different games could win. Lock it up.
Sounds good to me, although this contest has helped solidify my belief that Pokémon Red/Blue/Yellow would probably be the heavy favorite going in. Yeah, there were the expectations on GSC in GotD that didn't pan out, but looking at RBY's performance in 2009 (remember, in a three-way fight for second place in a fourway with obvious first-place finisher Ocarina of Time, RBY overcame the SFF to beat out FFVIII and MGS1), Pikachu/Charizard/Missingno.'s performances in 2010, and Red/Blue's performance here, it's pretty obvious that anything related to Red/Blue/Yellow is infinitely stronger than anything related to later generations.
red sox 777 posted... 1. R/B/Y 2. LTTP 3. Mario 64 4. Chrono Trigger (and I feel like this is stretching it) 5. uhhhhh help me out here
Yeah sounds about right. If I picked Chrono Trigger, it'd be using copious helpings of fanboy logic. I don't feel good about picking against Nintendo in anything important after watching this tonight.
Mario 64? I feel like SMB3 or SMW would be stronger.
UltimaterializerX posted... Skyrim Mass Effect 3
LOL games that are less than five years old in an open contest. Nostalgia factor is what fuels voters on this site; I'd be surprised if either of those games even made round 4.
FateStayAlbion posted... Old Japanese games. Are there any old Western made games that have any kind of strength whatsoever?
No, but there aren't any new ones with any strength either.
UItimaterializer posted... SmartMuffin is trashing Skyrim, which pretty much proves Skyrim is awesome.
I hardly consider "anticipation =/= nostalgia" to be "trashing". It's just a fact of these contests--new releases are great for the nomination phase, and then we get a bunch of 13-15 seeds "upsetting" 2-4 seeds.
UItimaterializer posted... Skyrim exceeds the hype, just FYI. Every other game is a joke, Skyrim is the punchline.
Funny, I'd been thinking of "Skyrim" as a punchline long before I learned what it was!
_Regaro_ posted... And naturally Ulti shows up and this topic derails into virgin debates
sometimes I wonder why I even bother in the evenings <_<.
UItimaterializer posted... claims to not pay attention
knows the Wyoming joke
lol smart muffin
Thank you, Regaro.
--
Now it's Prime Time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XUbQkOuFI
Crossfiyah posted... What about if they did a character contest, tag team, like this, but have 128 characters. Whoever would have been first seeded is paired with seed 128, 2 with 127, etc, so you have 64 entrees.
Statistically, pairing Link with the weakest character against a 63 and a 64 seed should be closer, right?
Nope. Link is that powerful. Maybe if he was paired with an anti-vote magnet, but that won't happen because the lowest seeds are determined by vote-ins.
...Actually, maybe it is possible. Link's first-round opponent in the most recent 1v1 Character Battle was Thrall, a character from World of Warcraft. "Link Always Wins" anti-votes aren't enough to actually prevent him from winning on their own, but if he were paired with a character from huge anti-vote magnet WoW? ...He'd probably still win at least three matches, but by the division finals he might actually be challenged.
MasterOfHunters posted... I think we just need a little break from the characters. A mini tournament featuring 32 consoles/handhelds would be nice.
Could we actually get 32 consoles/handhelds that would be worth including? Nintendo has 6 consoles and 4 (or 5, depending on if the original GB and the GBC are considered separately; I've seen it both ways) handhelds...oh, right, and the Virtual Boy, which was so awful that I nearly forgot about it; Sony has 3 consoles and two handhelds (and yes, I'm including not-yet released systems like the Vita and the Wii U in these calculations); Microsoft has 2, or three if you include the PC; Sega has 4 consoles (5 if the Sega CD is counted as being separate from the Genesis) and 1 handheld...and sadly, the iPhone/iPod has to be included. Let's take a look at how this would shake out.
(1) Super NES (8) Virtual Boy (4) Game Boy Color (5) XBox (3) Game Boy (6) Vita (2) PC (7) Wii U
(1) Playstation 2 (8) CD-I (4) Dreamcast (5) Arcade Games (3) Nintendo DS (6) PSP (2) N64 (7) Game Gear
(1) Genesis (8) PC-98 (4) Wii (5) iPod/iPhone (3) XBox 360 (6) Atari 2600 (2) Playstation (7) TurboGrafx-16
(1) Playstation 3 (8) Sega Master System (4) Macintosh (5) Nintendo 3DS (3) Game Boy Advance (6) Saturn (2) NES (7) Commodore 64
I'm not sure which is sadder--that the CD-I and Virtual Boy get in as joke entries due to their legendary badness, or the fact that nominations would be so sparse in this thing that similar to the likes of Sol Badguy/Ky Kiske avoiding the vote-ins in this rivalry contest, the PC-98 would be able to get in solely on the backs of rabid Touhou fans.
My picks for this contest:
(1) Super NES (5) XBox (3) Game Boy (2) PC
(1) Playstation 2 (5) Arcade Games (3) Nintendo DS (2) N64
(1) Genesis (4) Wii (3) XBox 360 (2) Playstation
(1) Playstation 3 (5) Nintendo 3DS (3) Game Boy Advance (2) NES (1) Super NES (3) Game Boy
(1) Playstation 2 (3) Nintendo DS
(1) Genesis (2) Playstation
(1) Playstation 3 (2) NES (1) Super NES
(1) Playstation 2
(1) Genesis
(2) NES (1) Super NES
(1) Genesis (1) Super NES
--
Now it's Prime Time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XUbQkOuFI
Best System would be fine as a 16 entrant mini-bracket IMO. Those choices/seeds are solid, but whoaaaa now, can't have PS2/N64/SNES all on the same side! I'd swap PS2 into that Genesis spot, then make PS1 the #1 seed in the result division along with N64, Genesis, Dreamcast, and DS. NOW we're talking!
-- thengamer.com/guru thengamer.com/xstats board8.wikia.com I'd search B8 for The Show if I were you. *wink wink*
dethfdddddh posted... We let the stats topic make the bracket.
This contest sucked due to the placements more than anything else.
Truth.
Lightning Strikes posted... Brawl didn't really gain anti-votes. If it didn't get anti-voted against Melee, it wasn't going to suddenly start. MM just gained a ton of momentum.
And really guys, the contest before this one had an upset winner. There's no reason to stop just because Link always wins normally. Take him out, and bam, four-way debate for the winner.
Yes it did, and you yourself just explained why. All of the "serious" tourney players love Melee and hate Brawl for "ruining everything that made Melee so great". When Brawl beat Melee, it started getting anti-voted.
XIII_rocks posted... Very few expected MM to win that contest. It was kind of a sad winner - a shadow of the 90s, widely regarded to be inferior to OoT, developed using 90s technology, stuff like that - but it certainly was quite an unexpected run.
Except it shouldn't have been unexpected, precisely because of everything you said there. Majora's Mask might as well have been called "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 2"--hell, it actually was known as "Zelda Gaiden" while it was in production, which pretty much states that it was more or less a "side story" to Ocarina of Time rather than a game in its own right. We were just all too blind to realize this until after the fact.
Safer Sephiroth 777 posted... Yeah I mean ask any Zelda fan and almost everyone will say that is worse than OOT.But of course it was the game of the decade because Zelda!
Well, yeah, that's the point. The sequel is never as good as the original. But in a series that has very little defined timeline, Majora's Mask is still most definitely a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time, which makes it kind of awesome just by association, and with all of the elite games of the 90s cut out, "kind of awesome" was enough to win it all.
XIII_rocks posted... From: LeonhartFour | #316 Isn't that a pretty common opinion though? Not outright hate, no. Mediocre, sure. Personally I think GS and RSE were about the same, until HG/SS came out and realized all the potential GS didn't fulfill.
I've seen a lot of people blame RSE for putting them off Pokemon but I think that's more due to people just having grown up by the time it came out? Some of the people who were kids when GS came out would have just started middle/high school when RS came out, for example.
Oh my god, this is it completely true! Well, okay, I've always loved RSE because that was the generation that introduced so many of the staples of the game (like abilities and planting berry trees), and also because the contests were so much better than the ones in DPP (**** you, dance segment! Actually, it's unfair to single out that part since the "appeal to one of three judges" and the dress-up segment are just as bad). But yeah, GSC seemed a lot better before HG/SS came out and were amazing.
--
Now it's Prime Time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XUbQkOuFI
UltimaterializerX posted... It's actually supposed to be both. Marvel vs Capcom 3 failed because Capcom refused to listen to MvC2 tournament players.
Capcom in general is the king of not listening to fans. You want a company that listens to fans and implements what designers want? Wizards of the Coast. If the fans all say they hate something, it gets banned from MTG tournaments.
If the fans tell Capcom or Nintendo something sucks, they just make more of it.
Ulti speaks the truth this time! Capcom is cancelling anything that the fans show interest in, while Nintendo has gone back to not releasing Fire Emblem games outside of Japan. Goddamnit Japan.
LeonhartFour posted... Considering Cloud is about the only thing left stopping a complete Nintendo saturation of at the top of these contests, it's not exactly silly.
Yes it is. Cloud is still the dominating #2 character that wins everything that doesn't involve Link.
LeonhartFour posted... From: GuessMyUserName | #341 Cloud is the #2 person in the contests, never losing to a non-Link character
Cloud's lost to non-Link characters on multiple occasions!
Recently?
In 1v1s?
Because the only time I remember Cloud losing a 1v1 to a non-Link character is Mario back in the very first contest. L-Block had his rally in 2007, but L-Block beat Link as well so that doesn't really change anything. Snake managed a couple of wins in '08, but that was with Cloud being LFFed, first by Sephiroth and then by Crono and, dare I say it, Link.
...Come on, you have to admit it. Even though Link isn't actually an RPG character by the traditional definition, he still delivers RPG SFF. I'm thinking it's the whole silent protagonist, "we refuse to give him voice acting because he's supposed to be the player's avatar" thing. What does "RPG" mean? Role-Playing Game. Nowhere in the name does it say anything about levels and experience points, though these have become a staple (and Link actually did try out a level-up system once, in Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, but it was ill-received). The developers' intention is clear, though--the Zelda games are roleplaying games. The name "Link" isn't even a real name--it signifies that he's the player's "link" to the world inside the game.
StealThisSheen posted... Aren't you one of the people that goes on about how different 4-ways are and how they don't count and crap.
Like, you're basically saying you don't want predictability
Unless it's predictability you like.
Yes. Yes, he is.
--
Now it's Prime Time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XUbQkOuFI
LeonhartFour posted... No, I'm not one of "those" people, unless by "they don't count," you mean "They don't perfectly translate to 1-on-1 contests," then yes, I guess I would be. I don't really like 4-ways as a format because lots of LFF, like SFF, is not fun. LFF is basically what makes 4-ways "more unpredictable."
Cloud losing is fun right now, but for the future of the contests, the only really powerful non-Nintendo entities gradually falling from the top is not good for them. I'm looking long-term here, not "right now."
Tell Square to start producing linear sequels, then, because the reason Nintendo characters become more dominant over time while the likes of Crono and the various Final Fantasy characters fade is because the Nintendo characters keep getting new games.
...Oh wait, Square has tried making direct sequels, and the fanbase has generally hated them! X-2, Crisis Core/Dirge of Cerberus/Before Crisis/whatever other Compilation of Final Fantasy VII s*** they've churned out (or "Complication of FFVII" as it's often called)...I honestly can't think of a single non-mainline game that's been well-received. I mean, Crisis Core, by most accounts one of the best things to come out of Compilation of FFVII, still lost fairly easily to FFXII, which most fans consider one of the worst non-MMO main-line Final Fantasy games.
AxemRedRanger posted... It actually does, but the lameness of the later rivalries just made people love Red/Blue all the more.
Truth. Red/Blue was the only good rivalry. Gold/Silver was decent because Silver was genuinely a d*** and so it was easy to hate him, but RSE and DPP lacked decent rivalries.
...Cheren from Black and White was a decent rival, though. Not as good as Blue or even Silver, but not bad.
Lopen posted... Though comparing DPP to Ken/Ryu is kind of a diss because the rival in DPP is a total doofus.
It's more like Ken/Rufus or something.
Yeah, that sounds right.
ExThaNemesis posted... Ehhhh wait Lopen. Red/Blue gain strength from every Pokemon game because they keep generating Pokemon fans. That's pretty much it.
This is true...sort of. It seems like Pokémon gains its strength from nostalgia, though--back in 2002, when GSC was still the most recent generation, and in 2003, when Ruby and Sapphire were brand new, Pikachu was ridiculously weak. Then Pikachu came back in 2007, after Diamond and Pearl had come out, and ever since then anything tied to RBY has been a high midcarder at the very least, with Charizard, Pikachu, and Missingno. all putting up extremely respectable performances against Noble Niners and the game itself resisting SFF against Ocarina of Time well enough to take out two decently strong non-Nintendo entrants in a fourway.
Shoenin_Kakashi posted... Remember, Gary Got 10 badges and going for an 11th when Kanto only has 8.
Damn right he did.
Icehawk posted... 4 ways happen
people whine
back to easy 1 on 1 brackets
TOO EASY NOW
LAMERS
4 WAYS FOR LIFE
HELL LETS DO 8 WAYS, ILL DO THAT TOO
8-ways would be hilarious. I'd say I'm all for it, but I'm afraid Allen would actually think it's a good idea.
LeonhartFour posted... Console contest would be inconsolable.
*groans* Well, yeah...
--
Now it's Prime Time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XUbQkOuFI
So 10 votes difference for Trainers/FF 7.I believe that B/W did wonders for Pokemon.I mean come on,most(pre-contest)had them losing to Fighters and if Mario and Cloud were in reverse position they would be now in the finals!
--
GameFaqs is NOT the place to go for relationship advice.Nobody here gets any action unless it is their right or left hand.Including me.~Dawn and Dusk~