From: StealThisSheen | #348 Aren't you one of the people that goes on about how different 4-ways are and how they don't count and crap.
Like, you're basically saying you don't want predictability
Unless it's predictability you like.
No, I'm not one of "those" people, unless by "they don't count," you mean "They don't perfectly translate to 1-on-1 contests," then yes, I guess I would be. I don't really like 4-ways as a format because lots of LFF, like SFF, is not fun. LFF is basically what makes 4-ways "more unpredictable."
Cloud losing is fun right now, but for the future of the contests, the only really powerful non-Nintendo entities gradually falling from the top is not good for them. I'm looking long-term here, not "right now."
Well, Pokemon sucks, so the fact that it does well is always bad news! ZELDA superior in that case!
It's not even about FFVII, really, or at least FFVII in relation to just Zelda. The only good thing about FFVII, and not just Cloud and Sephiroth, was that it helped put a buffer in there. The further FFVII falls the more Nintendo there is filling in the holes, and there is a strict hierarchy that voters follow with Nintendo games/characters/whatever, so you aren't getting anything interesting with those characters being closer to the top. It just makes the contests less predictable. You would do good in a contest just by picking the Nintendo option whenever possible these days.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
I'd rather have fun NOW than worry about some later contest that may or may not happen, and could have any number of factors pop up between now and then that may change things.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
From: StealThisSheen | #350 I find "Hey, Pokemon is getting progressively stronger. Is it the rivalry factor, will it transfer over to the games, etc. etc.?" more interesting than "Zelda > FF7 whoooo," personally, regardless of Pokemon being Nintendo or not.
But apparently I'm in the minority, so... Cool.
I'm with you.
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From: StealThisSheen | #353 That's probably where we differ.
I'd rather have fun NOW than worry about some later contest that may or may not happen, and could have any number of factors pop up between now and then that may change things.
Well, unless we get an FFVII remake announcement sometime in the near future, not much is going to change near the top. No new games for Snake, no new games for Cloud and Sephiroth, no new games for Crono. You're not going to see any non-Nintendo characters challenge the top of these contests after those guys drop out.
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Leon, you are putting an excessively negative spin on this, and this is coming from a person who puts excessively negative spins on almost everything. I really don't see how it's "worrying about the future of the contests" to be upset that Pokemon is beating FF7. Even if this match did mean the other super power is fading away fast" does it really make things all that more formulaic to have an all Nintendo top card instead of an all Nintendo + FF7 top card? If your answer is yes, I'm pretty sure you're just upset that Pokemon is beating Final Fantasy, and not concerned for the long-term health of the contest.
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From: Rad Link 5 | #357 does it really make things all that more formulaic to have an all Nintendo top card instead of an all Nintendo + FF7 top card?
Yes, it does. Anything that causes more SFF in the late rounds of a contest is bad.
Plus, the Nintendo hierarchy allows for less deviation and progression. If Cloud and Sephiroth remain in the "somewhere relatively equal to Mario/Samus/Snake," that's fine. You can still get exciting matches from that. Sephiroth's pretty close to slipping out of that range though, honestly, based on that match with Snake.
But is anyone ever going to pick Samus > Mario again? Of course not. Because that's the Nintendo hierarchy and Mario already proved who's clearly favored by the fanbase there. At least with Cloud hanging around, a match like that could be debatable because the results can actually flip around. Mario/Samus isn't going to flip around any time soon, in all likelihood.
From: LeonhartFour | #358 If Cloud and Sephiroth remain in the "somewhere relatively equal to Mario/Samus/Snake," that's fine. You can still get exciting matches from that.
I definitely wouldn't call Cloud vs any of those anything close to exciting. In Sephiroth's case, it was only Snake hulking up that made him an interesting entity again. If Snake hadn't gotten stronger/FF7 hadn't gotten weaker/whatever you want to believe, Sephiroth's place in the top-tier hierarchy wouldn't be in question either.
At least with Cloud hanging around, a match like that could be debatable because the results can actually flip around.
Maybe I don't hang around the stats and Guru topics enough (scratch that, I know I don't), but when was the last time anyone actually debated Cloud vs Mario? Let alone Cloud vs Samus.
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But regardless, I'm speaking in terms of the future. Cloud and Sephiroth are weakening at a pretty big rate. It's hard to deny that. Cloud and Sephiroth were still considered untouchable by anyone not named Link as recently as 2008.
Lol at people saying Pokemon > Cloud is an unexpected result. The way this board tries to make Pokemon into the good guy all the time is pretty hilarious.
Pokemon should've been the favorite here, based on how the contest has gone. People sticking with Cloud either were stubborn about established trends or just didn't want Pokemon to win. I said it about 100 posts ago-- Pokemon losing in a close one is the "upset" here.
(Or Mario winning tomorrow, which I'm still thinking is a possibility!)
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Also I will deny Cloud and Sephiroth are weakening. Right here. Their performance in this contest means nothing-- rivalries in this contest that only have one or two games behind them have done poorly all around.
Nintendo looks stronger in this contest because they're a company that thrives on feeding you the same crap over and over, and thus have rivalries that show up in many many games, which is apparently the criteria that voters are using to determine whether a rivalry is good or not. So they're going to do well here because voters are dumb.
Hell, Skyrim beating Skyward Sword in a HYPE poll should turn you away from that idea.
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If Mario wins tomorrow then that saves the contests (not this contest it's horrible no matter what). I really don't buy rivalries making the difference some people on this board are claiming I am much more inclined to believe that this is just the result of halving the amount of people who vote in the contests and unless Mario wins by an extremely small margin I would probably take him over Link next year too. Of course this match could just be meaningless and Link gets 65% on him again tomorrow which would just be meh.
@Lopen umm if Link is even worth 53% on Mario then Cloud/Seph should be beating/going even with trainers. How is Link being worth less than 53% on Mario not an upset?
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@Lopen umm if Link is even worth 53% on Mario then Cloud/Seph should be beating/going even with trainers. How is Link being worth less than 53% on Mario not an upset?
Cause if you actually absorb the data of this contest and don't bind yourself to results of past contests Link shouldn't be worth more than 53% on Mario without SFF. Mario's looked about as savage as Link. Compare Mario vs Sonic and Link vs Mega Man. Unless you think Mega Man vs Wily are significantly stronger for some reason that should pretty much tell the story.
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Lopen posted... Also I will deny Cloud and Sephiroth are weakening. Right here. Their performance in this contest means nothing-- rivalries in this contest that only have one or two games behind them have done poorly all around.
Nintendo looks stronger in this contest because they're a company that thrives on feeding you the same crap over and over, and thus have rivalries that show up in many many games,
Red/Blue is only in one game. Referenced in another, but, uh...
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Lopen posted... That's a technicality. Red/Blue represents the Pokemon franchise, basically. It's not like the rivalry formula ever changes in those games.
Yeah they do.
But if you really want to say the main/"rival" of RSE would have done just as well...
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And I've played most of the Pokemon games. The dynamic doesn't change much. The same general idea is there. The closest you've got to change is Diamond vs Pearl where they work together for a few things, but for most of the game it's basically just a very weak version of Red vs Blue.
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Lopen posted... And I've played most of the Pokemon games. The dynamic doesn't change much. The same general idea is there. The closest you've got to change is Diamond vs Pearl where they work together for a few things, but for most of the game it's basically just a very weak version of Red vs Blue.
Yeah, you've seriously never played them.
RBY: A true rivalry. Childhood rivals working toward literally the exact same goal, with the same purpose, same intent, and wanting to one up the other every chance along the way.
GSC: Main literally could not give two s***s about the "rival." The rival is a criminal that simply wants to be strong/wants power, and only becomes obsessed with defeating the Main because he can't see how somebody so "weak" is better than him. While the Main is just like "Uh, whatever, dude."
RSE: You don't even have a rival. The chick cares more about completing her Pokedex than actually battling, and Wally only ever battles you to see how strong he's come along the way with and without your help, only caring about beating you at Victory Road, and even then only using it to see he still needs to become stronger.
DPP: ...I can't remember how DPP worked, to be honest, but it wasn't really a rivalry.
BW: Three childhood friends. One really doesn't care and just doesn't want to be a weakling, and the other only becomes frustrated over not being as strong as he thinks he is.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
Ohhh, right. Yeah, DPP was probably the "closest" to RBY, but that wasn't even really a rivalry, either. ADHD kid wasn't really like "OH MY GOD I HAVE TO BE BETTER THAN YOU I AM THE ULTIMATE I WIN ALWAYS YOU WILL GO DOWN YAAAAAAAH" and Main didn't really give a damn.
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This is the same fanbase that claims the rivalry is like, super awesome and deep and whatnot, so not really going to argue with you rabid pokemon people here.
I'll just have you know that my opinion isn't baseless or anything. It's based on my own personal experiences with the franchise, and I've played the ones that aren't RSE and BW. Definitely nothing radically different in any of the games. The guy wants to outdo you, is constantly slightly ahead, fights you at random points in the game for no reason. That's the formula. There are twists on why the guy wants to outdo you or how your character feels about it, but it's the same thing.
If you wanna think there's any chance that people who love DPP or GSC aren't voting Red vs Blue because they really loved the rivalries in those games but disliked Red vs Blue more power to you, but I uh, disagree. I agree that Red vs Blue is the strongest of the rivalries there but I don't think Gold vs Silver would be fodder in this contest either.
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Wait, what. Since when has the 'main character' ever actually cared about anything here? It's not like Red gets all emotional and into it when Blue randomly pops up for a fight.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
ZFS posted... Wait, what. Since when has the 'main character' ever actually cared about anything here? It's not like Red gets all emotional and into it when Blue randomly pops up for a fight.
The implication is there from the moment of "He's been your rival ever since you were young" or whatever. Like, it attaches an emotional rivalry from the beginning. It's not like Gold/Silver where you randomly run into the guy, or RSE/DPP/BW where you're clearly friends first. Obviously it's hard to show since the Mains are mute, but the implication is definitely there in what's said and how Blue reacts.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
From: StealThisSheen | #384 Either way, the fact you say DPP is the MOST different when it's really the least is kinda indicative of just how wrong your opinion is.
DPP is the most different because you actually cooperate with your rival in a few cases. Like you do 2v2 battles and he backs you up. DPP is more like a Ryu/Ken rivalry whereas GSC and RBY is more like a Sub-Zero/Scorpion rivalry.
But like, I mean, really. Even Nintendo itself acknowledges that Pokemon games have the same formula every time. Nothing wrong with that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But like... calling the Pokemon Trainer rivalries different is like calling Bowser's appearance in Super Mario RPG different from his appearance in SMB3 to me. And, hell, Bowser in SMB3 vs Bowser in SMRPG probably has more differences characterwise than Blue and Gold, and how he actually relates to the protagonist is definitely more different.
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From: Lopen | #382 If you wanna think there's any chance that people who love DPP or GSC aren't voting Red vs Blue because they really loved the rivalries in those games but disliked Red vs Blue more power to you,
That can't be more than like eight people. Everything after GSC is junk, and even GSC is basically just a continuation of RBY for most voters; this I am pretty confident about. I think that nearly all the Pokemon introduced in GSC would be fodder (minus maybe that game's legendaries), as would the trainers. What are the GSC trainers even named, anyway? Beats me if the average voter would know.
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You really should have given up on the argument long ago, because you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
In DPP, he's your friend, but he becomes the closest thing to a rival since RBY. GSC is entirely one-sided, since the two don't even have the same goal. The same goal isn't shared in RSE, either. In DPP, both you and Barry do have the same goal that you compete for, even if you work together at times. Working together occasionally doesn't suddenly make something less of a rivalry, you know. You seem to be getting that confused. Gold wants to become the league Champion. Silver just wants to be strong/wants power, and doesn't care how he gets it. That isn't a rivalry.
-- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif
Well, I've only played RBY, and that was like twelve years ago, so I'm not going to get into the details of it. You just brought up the point that the 'main doesn't even care' for the other games, and I just don't remember Red ever actually doing any 'caring' in RBY either. The rivalry may be more apparent, I don't know, but Red doesn't contribute much on his end.
-- "When I was a young man, I had liberty, but I did not see it. I had time, but I did not know it."
I'm pretty sure the average GameFAQs voter is thinking closer to how I am about the games, but just more fondly. Do you honestly think the average Pokemon player is thinking about the nuances of rivalry dynamics and the specifics of how the characters interact? Like, from a literary standpoint you're technically right, but technically there are a load of differences in how Bowser's plots to kidnap Princess Peach work out from game to game, too. I'm saying I really really doubt the average Pokemon player thinks about that.
Basically, it takes a certain type of person to care enough about video game characters to frequent a board based on popularity contests around those characters. Pokemon fans on this board have a sort of groupthink on the topic, but I don't think you people are typical of Pokemon fans. Hell, the Pokemon board's reaction to a rally for Mario/Bowser vs Red/Blue should tell you enough on that topic. The "feel" of the rivalry is always the same, even if the specifics are different. That's the important part here.
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ZFS posted... Well, I've only played RBY, and that was like twelve years ago, so I'm not going to get into the details of it. You just brought up the point that the 'main doesn't even care' for the other games, and I just don't remember Red ever actually doing any 'caring' in RBY either. The rivalry may be more apparent, I don't know, but Red doesn't contribute much on his end.
Well, the Main doesn't contribute much of anything by character other than what's said about him.
In RBY, it's flat out said that you've been rivals for a long time, and you can tell by how deeply invested in it Blue is. It implies Red is just as much.
In GSC, you don't even know who the "rival" is and he doesn't even share your goal.
in RSE you meet the people along your travels and become friends without overlapping goals/etc.
And then in DPP/BW, it flat out says you're childhood friends, with only Barry seeming outright competitive at all.
The protagonists all being mute obviously makes it so they can't contribute anything, but it's all in the implication of what's said about your character from the beginning. In RBY, it says "you've been rivals," implying a mutual rivalry.
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Lopen posted... The "feel" of the rivalry is always the same, even if the specifics are different. That's the important part here.
No, it's not. Unless you think every voter is literally dumbing it down to "That character you fight occasionally" every single time. And if they're doing that, well... I hate to think what that means for every other rivalry.
Besides, you're the one that said people may feel differently if the dynamic was any different in later games. It IS, you just refuse to see it.
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