Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku, Tira, Yu Narukami, Doomguy, Bass.EXE vs. Ryu

(+) Yeah! (+)

The persona is literally the person's own energy given a "mask" or form. That's why the Persona universe has SP instead of MP, and why Personae take directly from HP pools and energy. Hell, it's why companions complain that they're "tired" or "at their limits" as opposed to outta magic.

And shut your mouth, the literal concept of death > a giant rock bug inside of a bucket.
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MenuWars posted...

Seeing as we're jumping the shark and going in random directions with the Crono stuff, is Ken from the Fist of the Northstar available in Mercs? He's been in a game now.

i just point out the Crono stuff since i know lopen doesn't respect the guy much, though by all means he should be far, far superior to Yu. experience, what they face, who they face, what they win against, the techs, etc all favor Crono a lot more. ....but Ken kinda has an issue where... everything he's known for is broken. it's a fairly binary "does he make their heart explode or not" kind of choice.

Lopen posted...

Chrono Trigger is really gratuitous with after images. It's hard to take them very seriously as an indicator of speed especially considering how slow some of the techs with em look.

well the first part's easy: they're just a lot faster than you seem to think they are.

the second part: people have no problem respecting Omnislash or Lionheart so why should there be a problem respecting CT techs? sure, some of them a bit wonky but so is Supernova. it's not unusual for a game to have some things look reasonable and others look absurd in ways that can't happen, even on the same character (Squall). far as i remember, all of the CT single techs are completely sensible moves with nothing that's too much of an exaggeration save for maybe Black Hole, which can just be explained as being not a real black hole. the general assumption for limit breaks in FF7/8, including by you, is that even though the moves may seem slow the attacks are actually just super fast, happening in a very brief period of time.
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I mean I should know better than to argue Persona flaws here, this board is basically Persona central.

Everyone buy your P3>5 mercs immediately.
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Wanglicious posted...

but Ken kinda has an issue where... everything he's known for is broken. it's a fairly binary "does he make their heart explode or not" kind of choice.

seems fair good point
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MenuWars posted...

It's a lot less magical than summoning something from another dimension, and considering it's described explicitly as an energy source derived from inner strength I'd say no. But hell if it'll stop the innate madness you're talking sure.

That's LITERALLY what Personas are described as. They're not being summoned from "another dimension." They're literally coming from inside of the person. That's why everybody has a specific one besides Wildcards. They don't get powered up by magical sources. There's literally no difference other than you going "That looks like magic" to one and not the other.
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Limit Breaks have a reason to be faster than they appear. Hint it's in the name. They also look way faster and better without respecting that anyway. You won't see me hyping Cloud's Deathblow Sword swing as faster than it appears.

CT basically depends on you assuming everything looks better than it is because of the world destroying evil they take out. I could do that, but why? Lavos doesn't really look all that impressive anyway. You have foresight to jump on him immediately and get in his face before he rains death spines on the world and the US Military probably takes him out.
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There's a pretty massive difference between something you hone through technique and martial arts over time to be able to do and something you can just summon on a whim, because (magic) reasons, from another dimension to bond with and do your bidding for you.

It's like saying Aeon's aren't magic.
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Incidentally, it's worth remembering that Lavos' 'world destroying' phase gets oneshotted by ramming the Epoch into it and the Epoch has 0 speed feats of any sort. Basically that's what you should calibrate Lavos off of - how impressive is instantly getting blown up by a ramming hit?
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MenuWars posted...

There's a pretty massive difference between something you hone through technique and martial arts over time to be able to do and something you can just summon on a whim, because (magic) reasons, from another dimension to bond with and do your bidding for you.

It's like saying Aeon's aren't magic.

Have you actually played Persona? They're nothing like Aeons.

You can't just summon them on a whim, and you literally hone them through technique over time. The Personas don't exist without the people they are bonded to because they are literally born from within them.

It's why the evil guys don't go "I need this magical talisman to grow stronger!" They literally go "I need the world being depressed and giving off bad thoughts to grow stronger!" because they literally need inner strength or lack thereof to gain power.
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StealThisSheen posted...

MenuWars posted...

Why does the act of summoning something make it more like Chi? Just because it doesn't use SP doesn't make it any less of a magical force... and the bond created between the person and persona is clearly inherently magical in nature.

...There's no magical bond. The Persona literally, quite literally, comes from inside of them. That's why it says they "Awakened to an inner power." You know, like chi. >_>

I am thou, and thou art I.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Incidentally, it's worth remembering that Lavos' 'world destroying' phase gets oneshotted by ramming the Epoch into it and the Epoch has 0 speed feats of any sort. Basically that's what you should calibrate Lavos off of - how impressive is instantly getting blown up by a ramming hit?

How impressive is literally getting pwned by school kids?
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How impressive is literally getting pwned by school kids?

Considering one of them blows a chunk of building the hell up and 'full power' Yu clears out like tens of thousands of mooks in an instant (depending on if you want to use Persona The Animation or The Golden Animation to see how they work in an FMV environment, respectively), pretty impressive. It's not like the Persona cast doesn't have feats, their universe has a lot of em.
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I like how Joker is the very definition of a legit 5 upkeep merc in P5 but people always actin' like they be scrubs.
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You should perhaps look up what Aeon means before making that argument.
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I'm not saying they're scrubs I'm saying they get their asses kicked by martial arts master overcome with chi energy without their precious magical personas.
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Oh, Menu's trolling.

I admit I took the bait.
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Big difference between Aeons and Personas is Aeons are dreams of The Fayth given form that the summoner attune to by visiting temples. It's more explicitly external even if the will of the summoner is tested or whatever
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Anyway, I've made my points you've made yours, I don't buy what you're selling, arguments not gonna go anywhere... and so there's no point continuing it.
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In fairness I am just informing you of reality, if you choose not to believe it I don't much mind.
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I can't wait for 5 years when the next mercs starts and P5 spoilers die down so The King of Kings, The Man of Men from P5 can get a worthy build
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GANON1025 posted...

I can't wait for 5 years when the next mercs starts and P5 spoilers die down so The King of Kings, The Man of Men from P5 can get a worthy build

A-kun?
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Yes
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Yes I'm clearly trolling because I disagree with you.
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Lopen posted...

Big difference between Aeons and Personas is Aeons are dreams of The Fayth given form that the summoner attune to by visiting temples. It's more explicitly external even if the will of the summoner is tested or whatever

For anybody willing to have an actual good faith discussion, it comes down to this.

A Persona is basically a person's inner strength/chi manifesting itself into the shape of a creature. There is no external bond. It all comes from within. That's why Persona 3 and 4 always say "You've awakened to a new power/Persona" when you get a new one as the MC. He's not making a new pact or something... He's literally awakening a new Persona inside of him.
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Yes the reality of videogame characters, how absolutely objectively conclusive that is.
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MenuWars posted...

Yes I'm clearly trolling because I disagree with you.

Well, you're clearly not willing to actually have a fair discussion and basically just putting your fingers in your ears by going "Lalala CHI Ryu MAGICAL Personas lalala!"

So either you're trolling or you're a child. I'm cool with either.
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Could """"The Culprit"""" from Persona 4 get into mercs? Has enough time passed
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StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Big difference between Aeons and Personas is Aeons are dreams of The Fayth given form that the summoner attune to by visiting temples. It's more explicitly external even if the will of the summoner is tested or whatever

For anybody willing to have an actual good faith discussion, it comes down to this.

A Persona is basically a person's inner strength/chi manifesting itself into the shape of a creature. There is no external bond. It all comes from within. That's why Persona 3 and 4 always say "You've awakened to a new power/Persona" when you get a new one as the MC. He's not making a new pact or something... He's literally awakening a new Persona inside of him.

...and yet an old guy makes them for you by smushing them together in a transdimensional room.
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GANON1025 posted...

Could """"The Culprit"""" from Persona 4 get into mercs? Has enough time passed

it's mostly a matter of finding a solid build to give him that makes him distinct from Yu, he sure could
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Lopen posted...

Big difference between Aeons and Personas is Aeons are dreams of The Fayth given form that the summoner attune to by visiting temples. It's more explicitly external even if the will of the summoner is tested or whatever

So would Aeons be allowed?
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MenuWars posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Big difference between Aeons and Personas is Aeons are dreams of The Fayth given form that the summoner attune to by visiting temples. It's more explicitly external even if the will of the summoner is tested or whatever

For anybody willing to have an actual good faith discussion, it comes down to this.

A Persona is basically a person's inner strength/chi manifesting itself into the shape of a creature. There is no external bond. It all comes from within. That's why Persona 3 and 4 always say "You've awakened to a new power/Persona" when you get a new one as the MC. He's not making a new pact or something... He's literally awakening a new Persona inside of him.

...and yet an old guy makes them for you by smushing them together in a transdimensional room.

This literally does not happen so....
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MenuWars posted...

Yes the reality of videogame characters, how absolutely objectively conclusive that is.

SMT has some of the best lore of any universe, man. It's all clearly there. The match is lopsided and it isn't as if I have a bone to pick.
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...and yet an old guy makes them for you by smushing them together in a transdimensional room.

Igor says every time that the Velvet Room is not actually what you see. That's a representation of something else that's more disturbing, a form that the MC is actually comfortable with.
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Big thing that separates magic from chi is external influences giving power. Aeon has it. Persona doesn't. That's pretty much all it boils down to.
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Right you are dude. How foolish of me to question the mighty, entirely unmagical personas.
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I mean it is still better than your mafia logic most of the time so there's that...!
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Holy crap if he's worse at Mafia than he is here, how do you even stand it?
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MenuWars posted...

Right you are dude. How foolish of me to question the mighty, entirely unmagical personas.

For the record Menu, the key is that people are arguing you're confusing 'supernatural' with 'magical', pretty much. Personas are 100% supernatural. Whether they're magical is another story. For example, psionic powers are supernatural and not magical. Don't Personas have a lot more in common with those than with something like Terra Branford casting Firaga with a chant and gestures?
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Kamekguy posted...

And shut your mouth, the literal concept of death > a giant rock bug inside of a bucket.

said rock bug managed to surface graze the entire world.
i mean if you're going Nyx vs. Lavos, that's worth asking but uh...

the P3 party never comes anywhere close to Nyx and they're a good step above the P4 party.


KanzarisKelshen posted...

and the Epoch has 0 speed feats of any sort.

at the same time, it's a machine that manages to open a gate then fly through it quickly enough to move through time (the initial engines were used like this) and other capabilities were shown to be extremely high. it survived the fall of Zeal without issue and it easily shot down the Blackbird, a flying fortress, post-Dalton upgrading it. hell, you've got individuals like Queen Zeal who, with just a bit of power from Lavos, managed to not only survive the fall of Zeal from inside of it, but also survived it being at the bottom of the sea. bit dishonest to be downplaying Epoch since you can just as easily say it's got an extremely high speed of travel when desired since it does manage to move through time on its own. you don't get many slow ships that can do that.
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Lopen posted...

Big thing that separates magic from chi is external influences giving power. Aeon has it. Persona doesn't. That's pretty much all it boils down to.

So Weltal doesn't work.

Not like it matters...
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I'm arguing that for a bond to be forged between a persona and a person that's inherently a magical thing happening. If it was an inner power then anyone could learn to do it. But that doesn't appear to be the case. They either have to be exposed directly to it, or born to use it.
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I must've hurt some feelings for the pettiness to have jumped up and outta the bitter duo over here. It's a game on the internet boys, relax.
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MenuWars posted...

I'm arguing that for a bond to be forged between a persona and a person that's inherently a magical thing happening. If it was an inner power then anyone could learn to do it. But that doesn't appear to be the case. They either have to be exposed directly to it, or born to use it.

They are born to use not. Not everybody can use Personas, and they are a part of the person. It's something arising or awakening from one's subconscious. Or something I'm only like three weeks into P3.
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bit dishonest to be downplaying Epoch since you can just as easily say it's got an extremely high speed of travel when desired since it does manage to move through time on its own. you don't get many slow ships that can do that.

Can you find a quote on the speed thing Wang? Cause my assumption was just 'the epoch goes at OK speeds but not exactly mega fast because it just opens a portal through time and steps through it'. Less Back to the Future with a higher speed than 88 MPH and more like a portable Stargate or whatever.
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*use it
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Tulip_OHare posted...

Lopen posted...

Big thing that separates magic from chi is external influences giving power. Aeon has it. Persona doesn't. That's pretty much all it boils down to.

So Weltal doesn't work.

Not like it matters...

Putting it that way I'd be more inclined to believe it fails to work yeah.

Really depends on where in particular you draw the lines.
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If my vote wasn't clear, "lol" = team not ryu
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MenuWars posted...

I'm arguing that for a bond to be forged between a persona and a person that's inherently a magical thing happening. If it was an inner power then anyone could learn to do it. But that doesn't appear to be the case. They either have to be exposed directly to it, or born to use it.

That's actually not true. Anyone could actually become a persona user in theory. Wild Card is another matter.

(also story purposes often dictate this being a bit askew)
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MenuWars posted...

I'm arguing that for a bond to be forged between a persona and a person that's inherently a magical thing happening. If it was an inner power then anyone could learn to do it. But that doesn't appear to be the case. They either have to be exposed directly to it, or born to use it.

I've tried to tell you a dozen times that it's not an actual "bond." They're basically giving spiritual birth to the Persona, and it's "bonded" to them BECAUSE it's a part of them.

I don't mean to seem hostile, but you're purposely being obtuse at this point.
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If you can pull a demon from your ass, you can sure as hell use a robot that's powered by ether.
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