Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Rikku, Tira, Yu Narukami, Doomguy, Bass.EXE vs. Ryu

(+) Yeah! (+)

And actually, yeah. As Chris said, anybody technically CAN use a Persona. In fact, that's a plot point in 3. Shadows start basically eating people when they awaken to the potential if they're not strong enough to form their Persona.
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StealThisSheen posted...

MenuWars posted...

I'm arguing that for a bond to be forged between a persona and a person that's inherently a magical thing happening. If it was an inner power then anyone could learn to do it. But that doesn't appear to be the case. They either have to be exposed directly to it, or born to use it.

I've tried to tell you a dozen times that it's not an actual "bond." They're basically giving spiritual birth to the Persona, and it's "bonded" to them BECAUSE it's a part of them.

I don't mean to seem hostile, but you're purposely being obtuse at this point.

Yes and I'm saying the bond existing in the first place is INHERENTLY MAGICAL, so as are you. As I said there's no point arguing it, we disagree, but you started acting like a petulant child about it.
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StealThisSheen posted...

And actually, yeah. As Chris said, anybody technically CAN use a Persona. In fact, that's a plot point in 3. Shadows start basically eating people when they awaken to the potential if they're not strong enough to form their Persona.

See now this is actually more compelling as evidence. If true.
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Well Menu let's start from the beginning

What does ' inherently magical ' mean
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

MenuWars posted...

I'm arguing that for a bond to be forged between a persona and a person that's inherently a magical thing happening. If it was an inner power then anyone could learn to do it. But that doesn't appear to be the case. They either have to be exposed directly to it, or born to use it.

That's actually not true. Anyone could actually become a persona user in theory. Wild Card is another matter.

(also story purposes often dictate this being a bit askew)

This is correct. Developing a persona literally just requires you to either make a contract with Philemon or visit the collective subconscious and man up and accept your own foibles and failings, achieving a measure of self-awareness and understanding. Proof of this is that both robot girl Labrys and bad dude Sho Minazuki develop personas - Sho explicitly doesn't need one to fight evenly with the P4 and P3 crews too.
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Lopen posted...

Well Menu let's start from the beginning

What does ' inherently magical ' mean

It means something that has a power that is unearthly in origin. Something intangible.
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MenuWars posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

And actually, yeah. As Chris said, anybody technically CAN use a Persona. In fact, that's a plot point in 3. Shadows start basically eating people when they awaken to the potential if they're not strong enough to form their Persona.

See now this is actually more compelling as evidence. If true.

You witness it happen in the game atleast twice, and it suggests it would have happened to a party member had another party member not found him and taught him first.
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MenuWars posted...

Lopen posted...

Well Menu let's start from the beginning

What does ' inherently magical ' mean

It means something that has a power that is unearthly in origin. Something intangible.

That is the most broad use of the word magic I've ever seen.
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MenuWars posted...

Lopen posted...

Well Menu let's start from the beginning

What does ' inherently magical ' mean

It means something that has a power that is unearthly in origin. Something intangible.

Do psionic powers count as being inherently magical then?
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I mean when you say make a contract once again I have to assume magic, unless demonic power is it's own sub category here. Personally I see it as being magic.
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The origin is literally defined as being within though, which would imply it is in fact from Earth. Are all Persona characters aliens?
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

MenuWars posted...

Lopen posted...

Well Menu let's start from the beginning

What does ' inherently magical ' mean

It means something that has a power that is unearthly in origin. Something intangible.

Do psionic powers count as being inherently magical then?

Well psionics are a mutation broadly speaking and made with brainwaves usually so no.
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Lopen posted...

The origin is literally defined as being within though, which would imply it is in fact from Earth. Are all Persona characters aliens?

they seem to originate from another dimension, so technically yes.
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StealThisSheen posted...

A Persona is basically a person's inner strength/chi manifesting itself into the shape of a creature. There is no external bond. It all comes from within.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_(Persona)

In the Persona 3 Club Book, it is explained that shadows are literally fragments of Nyx's psyche, which exist inside of everyone. When people begin to despair or lose hope, their unconscious hold on the "Nyx" that exists within them is weakened, and these fragments can emerge. In order for the psyches of living beings to contain these fragments of Nyx, they were forced to greatly limit their individual lifespans. Because these fragments have been an integral part of life on Earth for so long, the human mind is unable to function without Shadows, which is why those with Apathy Syndrome - people who have lost their Shadows - are merely shells whose minds have broken down.


so you've got a yes and no answer to that.
it's something inside of a person but is also something explicitly not native to them, it's coming from an outside source. that said... probably not magic. seems to fall in line a lot more with psychic power.

i'll stand corrected on the evoker bit as a summoning ritual too, can't find anything that says it would be. makes for a very different take from summoning actual demons ala Devil Survivor.
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Well if you're being that broad no one who isn't from Earth has any special powers whatsoever. So it's down to Doomguy vs Ryu with Rikku tossing items to Doomguy from above.
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MenuWars posted...

I mean when you say make a contract once again I have to assume magic, unless demonic power is it's own sub category here. Personally I see it as being magic.

To be fair, making a contract is shown to be different than just awakening to it in the games. Villains tend to "make contracts" because they're not strong enough to actually form their own persona, so they basically cheat by going to one of the games Gods.

Actually awakening to a Persona is basically accepting your own faults and spiritually becoming one with your subconscious.
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Also the powers function based on the dimension they're in. During Persona Q when everyone gets stuck in a time warp, suddenly Yu and P3 Guy can't change their Personas because something something the infinite possibilities of Fool are cut off from the universe blah blah blah
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Wanglicious posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

A Persona is basically a person's inner strength/chi manifesting itself into the shape of a creature. There is no external bond. It all comes from within.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_(Persona)

In the Persona 3 Club Book, it is explained that shadows are literally fragments of Nyx's psyche, which exist inside of everyone. When people begin to despair or lose hope, their unconscious hold on the "Nyx" that exists within them is weakened, and these fragments can emerge. In order for the psyches of living beings to contain these fragments of Nyx, they were forced to greatly limit their individual lifespans. Because these fragments have been an integral part of life on Earth for so long, the human mind is unable to function without Shadows, which is why those with Apathy Syndrome - people who have lost their Shadows - are merely shells whose minds have broken down.


so you've got a yes and no answer to that.
it's something inside of a person but is also something explicitly not native to them, it's coming from an outside source. that said... probably not magic. seems to fall in line a lot more with psychic power.

i'll stand corrected on the evoker bit as a summoning ritual too, can't find anything that says it would be. makes for a very different take from summoning actual demons ala Devil Survivor.

Well, Shadows and Personas are two different things. It's why in 4 you have to defeat your Shadow in order to awaken your Persona.
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See now we've got somewhere compelling. I'm still struggling with the fact that you can bond with a demonic entity without the use of magic, but the lore certainly explains that portion, so sure I buy it.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Can you find a quote on the speed thing Wang? Cause my assumption was just 'the epoch goes at OK speeds but not exactly mega fast because it just opens a portal through time and steps through it'. Less Back to the Future with a higher speed than 88 MPH and more like a portable Stargate or whatever.

there's no quote on that, it's a cutscene in the PS1 version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7BB1l9Cwjs
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Lopen posted...

Well if you're being that broad no one who isn't from Earth has any special powers whatsoever. So it's down to Doomguy vs Ryu with Rikku tossing items to Doomguy from above.

I wasn't being that broad with my definition, but if you want to be obtuse sure.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Wanglicious posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

A Persona is basically a person's inner strength/chi manifesting itself into the shape of a creature. There is no external bond. It all comes from within.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_(Persona)

In the Persona 3 Club Book, it is explained that shadows are literally fragments of Nyx's psyche, which exist inside of everyone. When people begin to despair or lose hope, their unconscious hold on the "Nyx" that exists within them is weakened, and these fragments can emerge. In order for the psyches of living beings to contain these fragments of Nyx, they were forced to greatly limit their individual lifespans. Because these fragments have been an integral part of life on Earth for so long, the human mind is unable to function without Shadows, which is why those with Apathy Syndrome - people who have lost their Shadows - are merely shells whose minds have broken down.


so you've got a yes and no answer to that.
it's something inside of a person but is also something explicitly not native to them, it's coming from an outside source. that said... probably not magic. seems to fall in line a lot more with psychic power.

i'll stand corrected on the evoker bit as a summoning ritual too, can't find anything that says it would be. makes for a very different take from summoning actual demons ala Devil Survivor.

Well, Shadows and Personas are two different things. It's why in 4 you have to defeat your Shadow in order to awaken your Persona.

See this is where I'm getting my info from having played 4, I haven't played 3. But you always had to go into another dimension to battle a possessed version of yourself. Which yes is about inner strength but it's also a magical entity causing the scenario to occur in the first place.
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Wanglicious posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Can you find a quote on the speed thing Wang? Cause my assumption was just 'the epoch goes at OK speeds but not exactly mega fast because it just opens a portal through time and steps through it'. Less Back to the Future with a higher speed than 88 MPH and more like a portable Stargate or whatever.

there's no quote on that, it's a cutscene in the PS1 version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7BB1l9Cwjs

Well that'd explain it, the only version I've played is the SNES one. Gonna watch now.
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MenuWars posted...

I wasn't being that broad with my definition, but if you want to be obtuse sure.

People living in opaque houses shouldn't throw dense stones
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MenuWars posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Wanglicious posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

A Persona is basically a person's inner strength/chi manifesting itself into the shape of a creature. There is no external bond. It all comes from within.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_(Persona)

In the Persona 3 Club Book, it is explained that shadows are literally fragments of Nyx's psyche, which exist inside of everyone. When people begin to despair or lose hope, their unconscious hold on the "Nyx" that exists within them is weakened, and these fragments can emerge. In order for the psyches of living beings to contain these fragments of Nyx, they were forced to greatly limit their individual lifespans. Because these fragments have been an integral part of life on Earth for so long, the human mind is unable to function without Shadows, which is why those with Apathy Syndrome - people who have lost their Shadows - are merely shells whose minds have broken down.


so you've got a yes and no answer to that.
it's something inside of a person but is also something explicitly not native to them, it's coming from an outside source. that said... probably not magic. seems to fall in line a lot more with psychic power.

i'll stand corrected on the evoker bit as a summoning ritual too, can't find anything that says it would be. makes for a very different take from summoning actual demons ala Devil Survivor.

Well, Shadows and Personas are two different things. It's why in 4 you have to defeat your Shadow in order to awaken your Persona.

See this is where I'm getting my info from having played 4, I haven't played 3. But you always had to go into another dimension to battle a possessed version of yourself. Which yes is about inner strength but it's also a magical entity causing the scenario to occur in the first place.

To be honest, I don't remember why it only ever happened in the TV World in 4 when it happens outside in 3 and 4AU. I think it had something to do with the extra emotional stress the TV World put the person under, which basically forced it to happen.

Another thing from 3 is that a team of bad guys were able to awaken themselves to Personas by taking pills that fucked with their brains/emotions. It basically opened up their minds to make them able to understand it/strong enough to do it... While shortening their lives in the process. The pills were an explicitly chemical kind of thing, further suggesting nothing magical had to occur. Furthermore, one of your party members takes drugs specifically to make his inner strength/ability WEAKER, and thus make it easier to control his Persona because he once lost control of it.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Well, Shadows and Personas are two different things. It's why in 4 you have to defeat your Shadow in order to awaken your Persona.

all persona are shadows, just not all shadows are persona. it needs the extra key factor of being accepted by the person to establish the transformation of one to the other.

Yosuke even said as much in P4A, "But if you accept [your shadow], it becomes a Persona... a power that can protect you."

Shadow Yosuke also says as much.
"That's why I've returned... I'm not your Persona anymore."

and sure enough, Yosuke can't summon his Persona when this happens and is only able to after he accepts the shadow version of himself again.
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...I should've actually used Shinjiro from 3 as the perfect example for why Personas aren't magical.

Shinjiro once lost control of his Persona and it killed somebody. Thus, he started taking drugs to specifically limit his own power, which made it easier for him to control his Persona.

Now, if Personas were magical demons, Shinjiro making himself weaker should have no effect on the Persona, and should actually make it tougher to control. However, the drugs made both Shinjiro AND his Persona weaker, so he could control it easier. That shows a direct link that the Persona basically IS Shinjiro.
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Wanglicious posted...

Yosuke even said as much in P4A, "But if you accept [your shadow], it becomes a Persona... a power that can protect you."

Shadow Yosuke also says as much.
"That's why I've returned... I'm not your Persona anymore."

and sure enough, Yosuke can't summon his Persona when this happens and is only able to after he accepts the shadow version of himself again.

Actually, that part is incorrect.

The Shadow Yosuke in P4A is NOT his Persona. He just sees his shadow and thus convinces himself that he can't use his Persona, and thus can't. He never actually lost his Persona or the ability to use it. It was entirely mental.
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Lopen posted...

MenuWars posted...

I wasn't being that broad with my definition, but if you want to be obtuse sure.

People living in opaque houses shouldn't throw dense stones

Touche.
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that Yosuke bit also does explain why persona are a psychic connection too.
if he doesn't always accept his darker side (his shadow) then it'll split from him and won't be his persona anymore. two halves of a person established by a mental bond.

granted, this does mean we've established that it's a psionic power. so if there's a psychic lockdown, there you go.
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StealThisSheen posted...

...I should've actually used Shinjiro from 3 as the perfect example for why Personas aren't magical.

Shinjiro once lost control of his Persona and it killed somebody. Thus, he started taking drugs to specifically limit his own power, which made it easier for him to control his Persona.

Now, if Personas were magical demons, Shinjiro making himself weaker should have no effect on the Persona, and should actually make it tougher to control. However, the drugs made both Shinjiro AND his Persona weaker, so he could control it easier. That shows a direct link that the Persona basically IS Shinjiro.

I mean you can argue that both ways, taking a drug to weaken oneself would lessen your ability to command magic and therefore weaken your abilities with it. Moot point tbh.
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MenuWars posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

...I should've actually used Shinjiro from 3 as the perfect example for why Personas aren't magical.

Shinjiro once lost control of his Persona and it killed somebody. Thus, he started taking drugs to specifically limit his own power, which made it easier for him to control his Persona.

Now, if Personas were magical demons, Shinjiro making himself weaker should have no effect on the Persona, and should actually make it tougher to control. However, the drugs made both Shinjiro AND his Persona weaker, so he could control it easier. That shows a direct link that the Persona basically IS Shinjiro.

I mean you can argue that both ways, taking a drug to weaken oneself would lessen your ability to command magic and therefore weaken your abilities with it. Moot point tbh.

But if he was weakening his ability to command magic, then his Persona would've went wild again. You have to keep a mental control of your persona at all times.

Like, if he's just summoning a demon, weakening himself with drugs means less control over the demon. >_>
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But your persona is bonded to you, and therefore has to draw strength from you, whether it's magical or psionic, you weaken yourself you weaken your persona.
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Menu is right about this point, actually. Body is a temple.

Wrong about everything else, as he usually is when he decides to spend his nights in these topics arguing for no good reason.
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MenuWars posted...

But your persona is bonded to you, and therefore has to draw strength from you, whether it's magical or psionic, you weaken yourself you weaken your persona.

Eh, I think that's a bit of a stretch, though.

Like, wouldn't you agree it makes more sense that "Taking drugs weakens the Persona because it's inside of you/a part of you" than "Taking drugs weakens a magical demon from another magical dimension because you're it's only power source?"

Not to say the latter couldn't make sense, but... It's a bit of a stretch because one is "You >= "You" " while the other is "You >= Magic"
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Hey Chris. Go fuck yourself buddy :)
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I mean, I can do that too but this is like the third time I recall you "fighting the good fight" and arguing for a long time about something armed with nothing but ignorance and an impeccably durable keyboard at hand. I don't mind it but I sometimes wonder 'why?'

If you need a good book I can suggest a few.
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I don't think it matters, if something draws its strength from you whether it's magical or whatever else in origin it still draws its power from you, and if you're weakened it's going to have less energy to draw from. Now if we're talking actual possession that's a different thing but entirely off topic.
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MenuWars posted...

I don't think it matters, if something draws its strength from you whether it's magical or whatever else in origin it still draws its power from you, and if you're weakened it's going to have less energy to draw from. Now if we're talking actual possession that's a different thing but entirely off topic.

Fair enough.

I'll go back to the other side of that one, then, which is the villains that use drugs to summon Personas. There's nothing magical about the drugs, it's all a chemical thing.
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No I argued because I wasn't being the given the compelling argument and then conceded when I was convinced. I'm glad your love for Persona has you so riled up.

Also you talking to anyone about arguing over mercs is pretty fucking hysterical. Well played buddy.
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StealThisSheen posted...

MenuWars posted...

I don't think it matters, if something draws its strength from you whether it's magical or whatever else in origin it still draws its power from you, and if you're weakened it's going to have less energy to draw from. Now if we're talking actual possession that's a different thing but entirely off topic.

Fair enough.

I'll go back to the other side of that one, then, which is the villains that use drugs to summon Personas. There's nothing magical about the drugs, it's all a chemical thing.

Why are you still arguing a point I've conceded?
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Just conceding an argument doesn't mean you necessarily believe it.

Having more evidence to think on for future decisions isn't a bad thing, is it?

EDIT: You and I have both agreed 4 is a little confusing. 3 is much more clear, though, and you've said you haven't played 3. Merely giving more details.
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I am watching old Craig Ferguson interviews and playing a game on Steam while browsing board 8. I don't need to be fussed to point out things. I mean I love Persona but it isn't exactly 'under attack' here. I might be more riled up if someone said it sucked or something, but then again I don't tend to get riled up about video games.

Also outside of my matches I can probably talk to most people about arguing in mercs. Sure when I have investment I can get all sorts of dickish but I am pretty casual about other people's mercs!
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we are missing the the most important point here though, in that Yu would be utterly schooled by Ryu anyway.
though he'd still beat Tira because Tira seriously sucks that much.
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It's also kind of amusing though that 3 is the only one that plays up the psychological aspect nearly as much. The P4 people look at the P3 bunch using Evokers and go "Yall are nuts"
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Someone just thought it would be cool to blow your brains out to summon your persona.

Which I mean... yeah.
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Nah as soon as you presented the lore about shadows being able to infect anyone and only those strong enough to defeat their inner demon/whatevs survived the ordeal, it becomes fairly concrete that it isn't magical and more of a spiritual/psionic thing.

It doesn't matter how I personally feel about the situation at that point as there's clear evidence that it draws strength from that person based more upon willpower and mental fortitude than any magical bond or whatever.

I mean it still feels magical to me, but im clearly wrong on that front.
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Wanglicious posted...

we are missing the the most important point here though, in that Yu would be utterly schooled by Ryu anyway.
though he'd still beat Tira because Tira seriously sucks that much.

Tira's legit

I think Tira vs personaless Yu is a fun matchup, but that's credit to Yu, not discredit to Tira.
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Ryu is super legit. I still kind of laugh at "Beat Alex so fast it took the crowd a second to realize the fight was over"
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I mean I rank Satsui no Hado Ryu very highly in terms of skill and power, but Weltal is Weltal, Berserker Doom gets wrecked by Ryu under normal circumstances but he's got Weltal and Bass as incredibly fierce allies. Then you add in the fact that he's got Personas to deal with and yeah he's fucked. Albeit Doom 2016 berserker> Doom 2 Berserker so I don't rate it that highly. If it's Doom 2016 Doomguy only needs to get a hold of him to rip his arms and legs off.
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