Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 4: The Happening (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

You know like

generally speaking I don't think of Lang as one of my favorite characters

but then I think about him in E1-5, and GODDAMN HE'S COOL AS SHIT

pretending to accuse Franziska to get permission from Alba to examine the crime scene is one of the most baller moves in the series, it's legit like one of my fave moments

Lang is really awesome in both AAI epic cases. The series has been intermittenly trying to recreate Godot ever since T&T, and Lang's probably the closest they came to succeeding. He's a really good rival who's uniquely suited for Edgeworth. I don't think he would've worked with Phoenix or Apollo, but he's an excellent foil to Edgeworth.
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I like how Lang goes along with the whole theme of like, a rival who's suited for out-of-court confrontations. Edgeworth's outside of the court and in the wild and that's Lang's territory and I think they do a good job of establishing that.

I think Lang has a lot of really stupid arguments which I find frustrating about him, but I kinda like him anyway (I'm sure the theme music helps). Agreed that he's an effective rival to Edgeworth but wouldn't have worked for Phoenix or Apollo. He's kinda middle-of-the-road as far as rivals go for me.

Also agreed that his fake accusation of Franziska is amazing. He even fooled me.

On the other hand I barely remember he exists in E2-5? Everything cool about that case is tied up in Sebastian or Simon to me.
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NeoElfboy posted...

On the other hand I barely remember he exists in E2-5? Everything cool about that case is tied up in Sebastian or Simon to me.

The Fall of the House of Lang is one of the best parts of E2-5, maybe THE best part. It's definitely the part where the case goes from being a scrambled mess to narrowing its focus and becoming a really good case after spending the first half meandering all over the place with bad pacing.

(Simon is pretty overrated)

(E2-5 in general is kinda overrated)
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6-6 finished. Somehow I expected it to be a hotter mess just based on how these threads have talked about it, but it just ended up being kind of bland and mediocre. I suppose I see the disappointment if you were hyped up for a grand reunion case between all the old cast members.
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It had to follow up 5-6 as the second DLC case ever. As a result, I think a lot of people went in with high expectations that the cause couldn't meet.
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Lang feels like a throwin for e2-5 where he's central in e1-5. the backstory is more critical than anything he actually does there.
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Yeah 6-6 isn't terrible by any means, it's just bland/mediocre. The high expectations probably didn't help. (By contrast, I think 5-6 probably exceeded expectations for most people.)

LeonhartFour posted...

The Fall of the House of Lang is one of the best parts of E2-5, maybe THE best part. It's definitely the part where the case goes from being a scrambled mess to narrowing its focus and becoming a really good case after spending the first half meandering all over the place with bad pacing.

(Simon is pretty overrated)

(E2-5 in general is kinda overrated)

Yeah I find E2-5 definitely rather overrated here; it's one of the weaker cases in the game. But Simon's a lot of fun and I appreciated that he brought something different to the table as a villain. Replace him with a generic final opponent like Blaise and the case would start to look pretty bad!

I think Lang suffers from his main connection to that case being via the fake president plotline which is probably the worst part of the game's plot. But his role in the case felt very minor and I don't remember it well now. I should play AAI2 again because I've only played it once (though I watched significant chunks of my wife's playthrough).
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5-6 in fact seems like the premise should lead to a complete train wreck, so it really had nowhere to go but up!

6-6 seems like it should be standard non-epic case material, but it doesn't really even live up to that.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

It had to follow up 5-6 as the second DLC case ever.

Well, third DLC case, technically.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

You know like

generally speaking I don't think of Lang as one of my favorite characters

but then I think about him in E1-5, and GODDAMN HE'S COOL AS SHIT

pretending to accuse Franziska to get permission from Alba to examine the crime scene is one of the most baller moves in the series, it's legit like one of my fave moments

thoroughly agreed!

LeonhartFour posted...

Lang is really awesome in both AAI epic cases. The series has been intermittenly trying to recreate Godot ever since T&T, and Lang's probably the closest they came to succeeding. He's a really good rival who's uniquely suited for Edgeworth. I don't think he would've worked with Phoenix or Apollo, but he's an excellent foil to Edgeworth.

I don't get the "trying to recreate Godot" argument and Lang has almost nothing in common with him so this confuses me!
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NeoElfboy posted...

I think Lang suffers from his main connection to that case being via the fake president plotline which is probably the worst part of the game's plot.

yikes

Body Double plotline is great

best member of the Anti-Yatagarasu by a very wide margin

SeabassDebeste posted...

I don't get the "trying to recreate Godot" argument and Lang has almost nothing in common with him so this confuses me!

Both Lang and Godot are guys who are more cool than competent (not to say they're incompetent, but you don't like them because they're good at their jobs), more style than substance, and their bread and butter comedic material is cheesy and illogical metaphors that sound cool but make no sense. They tried to make Klavier a friendlier version of Godot (although one who still berates the protagonist). Blackquill has characteristics from all the previous main prosecutors, so he has Godot's penchant for cheesy and illogical metaphors, only with prison inmates instead of coffee or Lang Zi.

_Harmonica_ posted...

6-6 finished. Somehow I expected it to be a hotter mess just based on how these threads have talked about it, but it just ended up being kind of bland and mediocre. I suppose I see the disappointment if you were hyped up for a grand reunion case between all the old cast members.

Yeah, it's a bit of a disappointment since your expectations for it are probably pretty high going in, and it never even really tries to meet them. I've been able to enjoy it a bit more on replays now that I know what I'm getting into with it.
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perhaps one of the biggest shockers in the series is that Edgeworth is on Team Ladder

figured he'd be one for precision and exactness
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also Palaeno is one of the best minor characters in the series
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Inching closer to finishing up E1-5 Middle

man AAI2 is going to be arduous
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ain't many cases gonna be much shorter than e1-5 going forward!
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Eh, the AAI free-roaming format takes a little bit longer than the point and click style does, too. Plus, trying to do this with AAI2 on an emulator will be no fun. I actually think DD will be fairly easy since it doesn't have free investigations.
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tag
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e2-5's gonna be the killer at the end section

edgeworth, kay, franziska, regina, simon, lotta, swift, de killer, dogen, ray, courtney, john, gumshoe, ema, lang, maybe debeste
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E2-5 in general will be tough due to the size of that cast. Pretty sure that's the biggest cast of characters in the series.
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yeah I didn't include powers, penny, blaise or roland

guessing that top 5 goes Edgeworth > Kay > ....

anyone want to take a shot? Simon might be 3 but he's MIA for most of the big stuff (though does show up over the phone). Courtney has some goods. DeBeste has the longest logic chess section in the game by far. Gumshoe is omnipresent but never very wordy. Lang probably has a sneaky big amount of lines due to testimonies and SS-5 reveals.
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Yeah, E2-5 spreads the wealth quite a bit between its cast. I'd probably put Simon in the top 5 at least just due to how long the final showdown with him is.
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I'm going to guess Edgeworth > Kay > Lang > Courtney > Simon, but I don't really know.

I don't think Godot and Lang are that alike, but one thing both have in common is that they're both very blustery and bombastic in a macho way.

LeonhartFour posted...

Body Double plotline is great

I thought it was completely nonsensical! Kinda curious to hear why you liked it.

The logistics of a body-swap which lasts for years just totally break my suspension of disbelief, even for AA. Even if we assume this is one of the only presidents in history who has no family, a president has to deal with so many people - friends, ministers, diplomats, advisers, political allies and opponents, etc. - that he'd be found out in no time.

I also didn't think he was characterised very well and that what he's supposed to be in the backstory is difficult to reconcile with the fop we see in E2-1.
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NeoElfboy posted...

I don't think Godot and Lang are that alike, but one thing both have in common is that they're both very blustery and bombastic in a macho way.

I mean that's the essence of the appeal of both characters so yeah

I never said they were carbon copies or anything

NeoElfboy posted...

Even if we assume this is one of the only presidents in history who has no family, a president has to deal with so many people - friends, ministers, diplomats, advisers, political allies and opponents, etc. - that he'd be found out in no time.

yeah this is the sort of detail that I honestly couldn't care less about although the body double did completely overhaul the government and Lang's dad at the very least figured it out and just took the fall

NeoElfboy posted...

I also didn't think he was characterised very well and that what he's supposed to be in the backstory is difficult to reconcile with the fop we see in E2-1.

He's pretty clearly an insecure coward who can't measure up to the real president in E2-1 and E2-5, and that's the essence of the character.
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Hit the second checkpoint in E1-5 Middle and we are exactly tied with 3-5 Trial Day 2's line total. The showdown with Shih-na is next, whoo!
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the moment Shih-na begins laughing as Announce the Truth begins playing is one of the absolute best moments in the series

I kept wondering where in the world Yew was this entire time and didn't suspect Shih-na at all, and then the reveal hits. Even now, it still gives me chills because it's such a well executed moment.

E1-5 is perhaps a better case than I've been giving it credit for all this time.
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Lang: Shih-na, please show me you're someone I can trust.

man I can't help but feel pretty bad for him throughout this whole thing

also for the ridiculous line count we've had up to this point in the case Alba has barely had any (he currently has about as many "lines" as Missile) so I'm curious to see just how high he goes from only one segment
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he probably gets to about 500. i know it's not true but it feels like he has 10 testimonies.
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well Edgeworth is closing on in 1000 lines by himself here in E1-5 Middle alone

I doubt Alba gets that high though

E1-5 End is a full hour shorter than Middle and not all of that is just Alba testifying
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Yew: Hey Edgeworth! The Yatagarasu has three legs. Do you know why that is?

and here's another excellent WHAM moment

the slow reveal as they fill out the picture and then Detective Badd shows up as the third member (with the callback to his description of the Yatagarasu's M.O.) is super good
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ranking e1-5 exemplifies the issue of case ranking based on peak vs consistency vs structure. if somehow alba and yew's takedowns were swapped, i might consider it a near-top-tier case. the length and badness of alba feel almost insulting after the climax though.

weirdly, the one case that feels like it has a similar issue might be 5-5. getting to the phantom's identity is all near-top-tier stuff but then you actually get there and the air leaves the balloon.
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spoilers Alba's actually pretty decent and kinda underrated

so is the phantom
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Is E1-5 on track to break the line record? I assume so.

LeonhartFour posted...

the moment Shih-na begins laughing as Announce the Truth begins playing is one of the absolute best moments in the series

Announce the Truth way too good again. I saw the twist coming but like you the scene still gave me the chills.

E1-5 is great. I'm definitely kinda sad it gets some less than stellar reviews here. :(

LeonhartFour posted...

yeah this is the sort of detail that I honestly couldn't care less about

It's a pretty major detail if you actually care about the backstory plot. It's fine if you don't, but I'm not sure why you'd hype the fake president stuff in that case.

Also when you get time I'm curious to hear why you liked it, not just why you feel it's not that bad. I've talked to various people about this plot point and opinions generally range from "yeah that plot twist is total garbage" to "eh, it's kinda dumb but I forgive it because it doesn't hurt the case/game overall" (which I can respect - that's how I feel about, say, Tres Bien still having lots of evidence for you to uncover several weeks after the fact). Someone who outright likes it is new to me so I'm curious!
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NeoElfboy posted...

It's a pretty major detail if you actually care about the backstory plot. It's fine if you don't, but I'm not sure why you'd hype the fake president stuff in that case.

it's not an important detail at all that's why

like the effect the body double had on Zheng Fa and its government is pretty insignificant to the story, it's just a tertiary detail

it's more the connection to Lang and the original president that's important (and to Simon, Marsh, and Dogen too I guess but they're not as big of a deal)

NeoElfboy posted...

Is E1-5 on track to break the line record? I assume so.

Nope, it's not even going to come close. E1-5 Middle is massive. E1-5 End is big. E1-5 Beginning isn't that long though.
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Anyway, E1-5 Middle is finally complete after nearly 2500 lines. Edgeworth racked up over 1000 lines by himself, but eight other characters had over 100 (with three of those going over 200).

I don't expect very many other segments to reach that mark. E2-5 Beginning is sadly way too long for its own good, so it might get there. 6-5 Trial Day 2 will probably challenge it, too.
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also I think the race for 2nd place in AAI1 line count is down to Kay and Franziska now

Gumshoe fell behind there during E1-5 Middle and I don't think anything from End is going to put him back ahead

and I'm starting to think Edgeworth might actually have a real shot at catching Phoenix in total line count by the end of AAI2
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I feel like I have a good memory for these games but one thing I can never remember is when AAI segments begin or end.

Right, I keep forgetting that you do more optional stuff in the Phoenix-style games than me. For me this case was longer than any original trilogy game (except maybe 1-5, I haven't replayed that since I started playing the games on the 3DS with its handy clock), but going back and taking a look at your own time figures that's not the case.

it's more the connection to Lang and the original president that's important (and to Simon, Marsh, and Dogen too I guess but they're not as big of a deal)

But the original president has been dead for years and doesn't actually matter to anyone since none of the characters who actually knew him (Lang's dad, John's mom) appear on screen. So it mostly connects to Lang and eh, we've come full circle - I don't think Lang is that central to AAI2.

I mean the obvious real connection is that the coverup of the body double crime helped create Simon Keyes as we know him in the first place, but exactly what that crime was is rather unimportant.
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NeoElfboy posted...

So it mostly connects to Lang and eh, we've come full circle - I don't think Lang is that central to AAI2.

yeah but I don't actually care if Lang is central to the game or not since he doesn't have to be for the moment to be great

NeoElfboy posted...

I mean the obvious real connection is that the coverup of the body double crime helped create Simon Keyes as we know him in the first place, but exactly what that crime was is rather unimportant.

yeah but the crime doesn't have to be important to be great

plus it makes total sense in hindsight with E2-1 because Lang hypes up the president of Zheng Fa as this ultra cool dude and when you meet him in E2-1 he just isn't

then you find out that the real president literally asked Dogen to give him a few extra minutes before assassinating him so he could meet his son for the first time and you realize holy crap Lang was right the real president is an ultra cool dude

it's just proof that you don't have to meet a character for them to be great

same thing with Manny Coachen here

dude is absolutely one of the best victims in the series
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I'm just not feeling it. I don't really care if the real president was a cool dude or not, and I'm not seeing why you do either. Is it redemption for Lang being a poor judge of character in the first game...? That's an angle I hadn't considered but I can see it if.

One of the many reasons the plot twist is dumb is because a president becoming weighed down by expectations and responsibilities over the years was a pretty neat plotline! Sometimes "cool" people become less cool when the world grinds them down. By saying "nah man it's just a fake who's a loser" you throw that out. (But even though this fake president is apparently a loser who has no friends he's still managed to cling to power and won, we can presume, at least one re-election?)

The crime doesn't have to be important to be great, but if it's great in its own right then it should stand up to even the most basic scrutiny and it doesn't.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Is it redemption for Lang being a poor judge of character in the first game...?

no you're the only one who seems to care about that

NeoElfboy posted...

One of the many reasons the plot twist is dumb is because a president becoming weighed down by expectations and responsibilities over the years was a pretty neat plotline! Sometimes "cool" people become less cool when the world grinds them down. By saying "nah man it's just a fake who's a loser" you throw that out.

it's more that the fake got tired of being the fake, thought he could do just as good of a job since he's been pretending to be him this whole time, and discovers that he can't since while he may look like him on the outside they couldn't be any more different on the inside

it's a pretty excellent study in contrasts

the real president being as cool as Lang says he was all along is much better than him just turning into a douchebag over the years too
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E1-5's biggest problem in End is the fact that Badd gives you the directives card and the tape as trump cards and urges Edgeworth to use them even though they're illegal since the ringleader is "above the law," and they make it out to be like this is what's totally going to bring him down

then they give Edgeworth a faux-dilemma over whether to use the trump card and even after you use it, Alba just shrugs it off and the case goes on for two more hours

the only purpose of the trump card is to get Alba to transform, which kinda feels like a waste

there was a way to have the case end well with the structure it currently has but they eschewed it in favor of overloading you with every character in the case saving the day at the last second before Alba gets away

the funny thing is E2-5 ends the same way but everyone lauds it
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LeonhartFour posted...

no you're the only one who seems to care about that

C'mon Leon, you're better than this. Address my arguments instead of speaking authoritatively about what everyone else does and doesn't care about, or don't address them at all.

That said whatever, it's not a big deal. I think it's pretty obvious that Lang is a poor judge of character and that this is directly supported by the game. If your point is that you disagree that's okay. I was just trying to find a narrative justification for a bad plot twist in AAI2, we can go back to discussing the bad plot twist in a vacuum.

LeonhartFour posted...

it's more that the fake got tired of being the fake, thought he could do just as good of a job since he's been pretending to be him this whole time, and discovers that he can't since while he may look like him on the outside they couldn't be any more different on the inside

it's a pretty excellent study in contrasts

It's a paper-thin "study", which pretty much boils down to "character A is GOOD, character B is BAD". And because Zheng Fa is never seen and only rarely mentioned, we don't even get a good study in the ways that he's a worse president anyway. (Apparently he's still good enough to win re-election.)

Presidents have difficult jobs and are generally complicated figures. With Zheng Fa they had an opportunity to have such a figure, but they did not take it - instead we get one character who is little more than a Platonic ideal and one character who makes no sense.
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NeoElfboy posted...

C'mon Leon, you're better than this. Address my arguments instead of speaking authoritatively about what everyone else does and doesn't care about, or don't address them at all.

That said whatever, it's not a big deal. I think it's pretty obvious that Lang is a poor judge of character and that this is directly supported by the game. If your point is that you disagree that's okay. I was just trying to find a narrative justification for a bad plot twist in AAI2, we can go back to discussing the bad plot twist in a vacuum.

I already said (and so did Para) that I don't agree about Lang being a poor judge of character on the basis of him not realizing Shih-na was a mole, so it just sounds like you're listening poorly if you think that's why I'd think that's a cool thing. That is why I was dismissive about that point. Shih-na effectively deceived everyone she's ever worked for (She was destined to betray everyone from the very beginning, after all), so unless you want to say Alba, Coachen, Badd, and Byrne (and pretty much everyone who's ever met Shih-na/Yew, which would include Edgeworth and Franziska) are all poor judges of character, too, this is a pretty flimsy assessment of Lang's character. The much easier conclusion is that Shih-na is just super good at what she does. Lang has 100+ men who are super loyal to him, but sure, okay, it's firmly established that he's a poor judge of character on the basis of the one black sheep. I guess everyone who met Fulbright in DD is a poor judge of character, too. Actually, I guess everyone in the Ace Attorney universe is a poor judge of character because they all get misled by someone at some point. Phoenix Wright: Firmly established poor judge of character because he defended a guilty person once.

NeoElfboy posted...

It's a paper-thin "study", which pretty much boils down to "character A is GOOD, character B is BAD"

Pro-tip: Foils are the best. You can boil down any foil to Character A is THIS and Character B is THAT, but that's the definition of oversimplification.

NeoElfboy posted...

And because Zheng Fa is never seen and only rarely mentioned, we don't even get a good study in the ways that he's a worse president anyway. (Apparently he's still good enough to win re-election.)

If it was the real president all along, then either Lang was just wrong about him all along (which is boring), or he's become a corrupt politician over the years and the fact that he used to be good is just an informed attribute we never actually get to see (which is also boring).
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New topic:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/76522434
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Let's go ahead and be done with this topic so we can move on to better things.
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seriously though they should've had Edgeworth hold on to the trump card for as long as possible because he can't convince himself to use it and then use it at the last minute to finally nail Alba when it seems like all other options are gone
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probably would've saved us an hour of playtime too
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it's also astounding how Shih-na can be so awesome and Yew can be so bad

no wonder no one can get a read on this woman
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