Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 4: The Happening (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

E1-1 Beginning complete

"No one gets away with committing murder in my office. No one."

saying that to someone with a gun to your back is hardcore...even though it wasn't actually the murderer he was addressing

also Portsman's jacket game is strong
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E1-1's twist that there were two visitors to Edgeworth's office is one of the more underrated tricks in the series imo, it's simple but really effective

Paratroopa1 posted...

E1-1's twist that there were two visitors to Edgeworth's office is one of the more underrated tricks in the series imo, it's simple but really effective

The best part of this is that Portsman realizes it first and uses it to his advantage in a really clever way to provide himself an alibi. He might be the most clever intro villain other than Knightley.
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Edgeworth: I believe the proper phrase here is, "You fail."

such a great zinger from Edgeworth

nearly done with E1-1 whoo
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E1-1 is just solid for what it is. Portsman is fun. Great name pun too.
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I didn't get Portsman's name pun because I pronounce "Jacques" correctly
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Total lines by character:

1. Phoenix Wright - 15074
2. Miles Edgeworth - 6444
3. Maya Fey - 4441
4. The Judge - 3845
5. Dick Gumshoe - 3030
6. Franziska von Karma - 1654
7. Mia Fey - 1418
8. Ema Skye - 1179
9. Pearl Fey - 1035
10. Godot - 902
11. Larry Butz - 683
12. Kay Faraday - 638
13. Dahlia Hawthorne - 578
14. Wendy Oldbag - 491
15. Adrian Andrews - 459
16. Lotta Hart - 437
17. The Judge's Brother - 421
18. Bikini - 351
19. Will Powers - 329
20. Lawrence "Moe" Curls - 320
21. Maggey Byrde - 320
22. Manfred von Karma - 316
23. Winston Payne - 301
24. Luke Atmey - 292
25. Damon Gant - 285
26. Calisto Yew/Shih-na - 279
27. Ini Miney - 275
28. Angel Starr - 272
29. Ron DeLite - 269
30. Rhoda Teneiro - 267
31. Shi-Long Lang - 263
32. Jake Marshall - 257
33. Jean Armstrong - 251
34. Lana Skye - 249
35. Victor Kudo - 247
36. Tyrell Badd - 245
37. Marvin Grossberg - 234
38. Jacques Portsman - 231
39. Shelly de Killer - 219
40. Maximillion Galactica - 203
41. Ben & Trilo Quist - 200
42. Ken "Acro" Dingling - 182
43. Mike Meekins - 182
44. Iris - 181
45. Furio Tigre - 176
46. Matt Engarde - 171
47. Cammy Meele - 168
48. Morgan Fey - 165
49. Redd White - 162
50. Regina Berry - 151
51. Dee Vasquez - 148
52. Zinc Lablanc - 145
53. Trilo Quist - 140
54. Desiree DeLite - 139
55. Cody Hackins - 135
56. Lauren Paups - 129
57. Richard Wellington - 107
58. April May - 104
59. Yanni Yogi - 98
60. Lance Amano - 92
61. Penny Nichols - 86
62. Viola Cadaverini - 80
63. Terry Fawles - 74
64. The Bellboy - 72
65. Director Hotti - 71
66. Ernest Amano - 68
67. Benjamin Woodman - 60
68. Sal Manella - 59
69. Frank Sahwit - 58
70. Chief of Detectives - 55
71. Lisa Basil - 46
72. Turner Grey - 39
73. Elise Deauxnim - 30
74. Polly - 20
75. Gregory Edgeworth - 5

Overall total lines - 52933

Total lines by segment:

E1-1 Beginning - 535
E1-1 End - 504

Total lines by case:

2-4 - 5946
1-5 - 5913
3-5 - 5815
3-2 - 4151
3-3 - 4063
2-3 - 3884
1-4 - 3466
2-2 - 3119
E1-4 - 2935
1-3 - 2741
E1-3 - 2412
E1-2 - 1995
1-2 - 1773
3-4 - 1225
3-1 - 1167
E1-1 - 1039
2-2 - 899
1-1 - 389

Total lines by character per case:

Turnabout Visitor (E1-1)

1. Miles Edgeworth - 466 (44.85%)
2. Dick Gumshoe - 262 (25.22%)
3. Jacques Portsman - 226 (21.75%)
4. Maggey Byrde - 63 (6.06%)
5. Other - 16
6. Tyrell Badd - 3
7. Winston Payne - 2
8. Buddy Faith - 1

Total lines by character per game:

Ace Attorney Investigations 1

1. Miles Edgeworth - 3789
2. Dick Gumshoe - 767
3. Franziska von Karma - 736
4. Kay Faraday - 638
5. Calisto Yew/Shih-na - 279
6. Rhoda Teneiro - 267
7. Shi-Long Lang - 263
8. Tyrell Badd - 245
9. Jacques Portsman - 231
10. Cammy Meele - 168
11. Zinc Lablanc - 145
12. Other - 138
13. The Judge - 132
14. Lauren Paups - 129
15. Lance Amano - 92
16. Ernest Amano - 68
17. Manfred von Karma - 68
18. Mike Meekins - 54
19. Wendy Oldbag - 48
20. Ema Skye - 29
21. The Bellboy - 15
22. Mack Rell - 5
23. Byrne Faraday - 2
24. Chief of Detectives - 2
25. Manny Coachen - 2
26. Sal Manella - 2
27. Winston Payne - 2
28. Buddy Faith - 2
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LeonhartFour posted...

I didn't get Portsman's name pun because I pronounce "Jacques" correctly

It's a visual pun.

Also wow that's a high line percentage for a killer. Though it makes sense since the way the case is structured, he's basically does double duty as both that and the "rival".
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I'm pretty sure E1-1 has fewer principal characters than any other case in the series, by a pretty wide margin too

1-1 is Phoenix, Mia, Judge, Payne, Larry, and Sahwit, and that's the next lowest I can think of (3-1 is the same?). Edgeworth's line share stays about where you'd expect for the main character, so it just means everyone else has more relatively.

Gonna be interesting to see where line count for AAI ends up. I assume Kay will take #2 but there's a bit of a logjam shaping up in that area.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Gumshoe drops to fourth, but I can't remember if he or Franziska is more prevalent in E1-5.

By the way, it is worth repeating that E1-5 is my favorite Franziska appearance in the series. Underrated.

Also it just occurred to me that Franziska has more lines in AAI1 than any other game. Weird.

It's not that weird once you realise that prosecutors just don't have that many lines relative to their importance. Ema having more lines than Edgeworth in AA1 already provides a stark demonstration of how much it helps to be a friend/ally of the main (and Edgeworth in AA1 seems to have more line percentage than is the norm for prosecutors to boot; I think only Blackquill has any real chance to match him?).
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NeoElfboy posted...

It's a visual pun.

how
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The silent s gets moved to the next name (and becomes not silent), whereas the J shifts from a French pronunciation to an English one.

Jacques Portsman
Jacquesportsman
Jacque Sportsman
Jock Sportsman

Both changes are more easily "seen" than heard, but it works since Ace Attorney is all silent text anyway! It's an A+ pun because both Jacques and Portsman are real names (unlike "Atishon" or "Eldoon") and takes only minor modifications to turn into two pun words at once.
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I mean you have to completely change the first word to "get it" so that doesn't really seem like a visual pun

and it may be "silent text" but you still pronounce them in your head a certain way
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anglicizing foreign names often results ib anglicized pronunciation

afaik brian jacques's last name was pronounced with an S
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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean you have to completely change the first word to "get it" so that doesn't really seem like a visual pun

and it may be "silent text" but you still pronounce them in your head a certain way

It's... basically just an anglicization of the consonants. I dunno how you think of that as completely changing. Dustin Prince involves a comparable amount of change (and is also great); again, you have to make changes to two consonants, but they're both natural changes to make, albeit for different reasons.

You may pronounce words in your head but you also see other ways those letters could be arranged (particularly across word borders) or pronounced, which allows wordplay opportunities. It's been years since I've studied literature but I definitely know poetry makes use of this technique as well.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Dustin Prince involves a comparable amount of change (and is also great)

The reason Dustin Prince is great is because they're both common names and don't actually require any change to create the pun. You just have to pay attention to what you're saying. You have to do some finagling to get Jacques Portsman to work, as well as pronouncing the name a specific way. Regardless, neither one is a visual pun.

SeabassDebeste posted...

afaik brian jacques's last name was pronounced with an S

he also pronounced it like "Jakes" instead of "Jocks" so it doesn't really work here either!
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NeoElfboy posted...

You may pronounce words in your head but you also see other ways those letters could be arranged (particularly across word borders) or pronounced, which allows wordplay opportunities. It's been years since I've studied literature but I definitely know poetry makes use of this technique as well.

Yes, but this sort of wordplay still requires some sense of how to pronounce the word to get the intended effect. You're even saying as much in how you're trying to explain how it's a "visual" pun. You're not getting "Jock" out of "Jacques" without knowing how to pronounce it the way they want you to say it, and the pun is entirely based on how you say it, which is why I didn't get it at first.

A visual pun is seeing something with no words and understanding what it's "saying" non-verbally.

https://digitalsynopsis.com/design/punny-pixels-illustrated-puns-visual-wordplay/

like if you're using words at all it's not a visual pun (unless it's something like pointing out how the word "bed" looks like a bed), which is why I was so confused by you insisting name puns are visual puns
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E1-5's intro is kind of weird because it plays part of a scene that takes place during the case instead of taking place prior, and they intentionally vaguely present the scene into making you think Edgeworth believes Kay started the fire.

Like, I don't think any other case's intro is from a scene that takes place later during the case itself.

Actually, wait, no, 2-2 does this, too. They show Phoenix's conversation with Maya in the detention center after the murder during the intro, but they still don't doctor the conversation to give a false impression.
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I forgot how painful that first part of the case was due to how painful the last part of the case was.

The middle section's greatness almost feels like it doesn't belong.
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E1-5 Beginning is pretty good, too, actually. The crime scene on the Babahl side is pretty great, and the cross-examinations with Shih-na are really solid.

pretty sure the Middle section is where all the Larry and Oldbag stuff happens which is the real painful part of E1-5
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LeonhartFour posted...

Like, I don't think any other case's intro is from a scene that takes place later during the case itself.

6-5 does too, doesn't it? With the riot?
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Cybat posted...

LeonhartFour posted...

Like, I don't think any other case's intro is from a scene that takes place later during the case itself.

6-5 does too, doesn't it? With the riot?

Oh, that's right. It does show the riot in the intro.
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LeonhartFour posted...

E1-5 Beginning is pretty good, too, actually. The crime scene on the Babahl side is pretty great, and the cross-examinations with Shih-na are really solid.

pretty sure the Middle section is where all the Larry and Oldbag stuff happens which is the real painful part of E1-5

That section is fucking great though, one of the funniest investigation segments in the series imo

Eh, it has its moments (like Edgeworth's painful realization that the Steel Samurai autograph he received earlier was signed by Larry), but Oldbag in particular is difficult to deal with here. Larry's testimonies are a mess, too, and not in the good way his testimonies usually are.
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Edgeworth: ...Giving them exclusive extraterritorial rights.
Gumshoe: Extraterrestrial rights? Sir, do you really believe that the truth is out there?!

might be Gumshoe's best one-liner in AAI1
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E1-5 is one of the funniest cases in the series after the rest of AAI isn't that funny. Not what I would have expected for a final case but welcome nonetheless. I thought Larry and Oldbag were great, but then I'm hard-pressed to think of an appearance of either that isn't great.

LeonhartFour posted...

The reason Dustin Prince is great is because they're both common names and don't actually require any change to create the pun. You just have to pay attention to what you're saying.

Er... yes it does require change. You have to change one phoneme and add another.

Dustin Prince / Dusting Prints

The changes are both relatively easy, natural ones to make, since they're the exact reverse of two shortcuts we often use when saying words quickly. I assume you like it more because the changes are easy for reasons which are sound-based, rather than visual/anglicization-based, and that's fine.
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it requires change in the sense that yes it's obviously not those exact words but you can pronounce the name as is and understand the pun

I like it better as a pun because it's simple. I never said Jacques Portsman was a bad pun either. I just said I didn't "get it" at first because I didn't pronounce the name properly, and you for some strange reason keep trying to explain to me why it's a visual pun despite that. Like, if it was visual, then there wouldn't have been any issue of me getting it wrong because of pronunciation. The Anglicization of the name is, in fact, a problem with pronunciation.

NeoElfboy posted...

E1-5 is one of the funniest cases in the series after the rest of AAI isn't that funny. Not what I would have expected for a final case but welcome nonetheless.

epic cases often have the very best comedic writing so I'm not sure why you wouldn't have expected this

even so E1-5 is one of the weaker epic cases in terms of comedy

only E2-5 is worse but I'd probably blame that on the fan translation and the fact that AAI2 is often a little too self-serious in general

actually 4-4 also might be worse because that case takes itself pretty seriously too
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E2-5 and 4-4 are definitely very self-serious (though I guess 4-4 has Spark Brushel, who's probably supposed to be funny).

5-5 is pretty serious too, and 6-5's humor is mostly on day 1, to my memory

2-4's humor is present but a lot of it is very, very dark. 3-5 is pretty humor-light on day 2, too.

I don't remember 1-5 being funny, but it was more like E1-5 where it attempted to be funny and mostly missed.
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1-5 definitely tries to be funny but usually fails. 3-5 trial day 2 has plenty of humor just from Godot alone. 3-5 is also peak Gumshoe on both days in terms of comedy.

4-4 does have Brushel, this is true. Dude is hilarious. Valant has his moments as well. You've also got Misham going Psycholock, but that's about it. Most of 4-4 day 2 is pretty humorless. It's probably the most "serious mode" Phoenix ever gets (and he's investigating alone the entire time, which takes away a lot of opportunities for humorous interactions).

5-5 has its moments with Ponco, Blackquill, and even the Phantom. 6-5 day 2 has plenty of hilarious moments like Ga'ran declaring you guilty just for the heck of it and rewriting laws in the middle of court, and Amara's testimony in general has humor sprinkled throughout the whole thing. The one-liners don't stick out as much in an epic case since the drama is always the most memorable aspect there, but they are certainly always there. They just don't have as many comedic setpieces. They're usually relegated to one-liners and stuff, but they're always there.
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man how many times is Kay going to say the exact same thing as her defense
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E1-5 Beginning complete

that's the easy part out of the way

the long haul starts next

Gumshoe trending in the right direction there to hold on to #2 in AAI1's number of lines but I think that's probably going to be his biggest segment since he's actually your partner for the investigation here. I think he's quite a bit less involved from here on out. Franziska is pretty big during Middle since she's the only one who joins Edgeworth in any part of the Allebahst investigation.
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Random thought I had

Iris gave Phoenix the sweater... and she made it right? Right? It wasnt Dahlia making it because Iris didnt know how to sew back then, right?
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Final cases can be funny but I rarely think they're the funniest case in their game (3-5 is the only other one that might be, yep; seconding the hype there). E1-5 is not only the best case at humour in the game, but the best by a wide margin.

I'd personally certainly put it above most other final cases for humour too - hell, even Alba is funnier than the main villain types usually are (Simon's also pretty good... something about the AAI villains I guess). Matt has a dark humour to him but he's barely on-screen anyway.
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Natwaf_akidna posted...

Random thought I had

Iris gave Phoenix the sweater... and she made it right? Right? It wasnt Dahlia making it because Iris didnt know how to sew back then, right?

Iris absolutely made it. Why wouldn't Iris know how to sew?

NeoElfboy posted...

Matt has a dark humour to him but he's barely on-screen anyway.

de Killer is the biggest source of dark humor and the greatest comedic bit in the series

he's also great at absolute deadpan humor

so yes 2-4 is JFA's funniest case

1-4 is also PW1's funniest case

I'll have to wait until after AJ, DD, and SoJ to rule on those, but I'd go ahead and venture a guess that 6-5 is the funniest SoJ case. It might be 5-3 for DD though.
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Phew thats a load off my mind
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I love the double subversion of Lang giving a birthday present to one of his men, which causes everyone to laud how great he is, only for the man to say it wasn't his birthday...except the gift isn't for him! It's for his younger brother's wife's younger brother!
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this whole "I tried to climb down the chimney because I wanted to pretend to be Santa Claus" nonsense is precisely why Larry's role in E1-5 is often groan-inducing

it's dumb even for him
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I like the fact that the only reason Edgeworth jots down information about the passionflowers is so he can remember the name (further evidence that he's not great at remembering the names of non-human things).

also pretty sure the explanation of where the name came from is the only reference to Christianity in the series (and probably to any real organized religion at all)
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you know it probably doesn't help Oldbag's case that the music that plays when she's around is the worst song on an otherwise fantastic OST
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Edgeworth: You're already telling us nothing but lies! So let it go and move on!

ah so that's where Nahyuta got it from
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Lang Zi says: ............Just go already!
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Man, that section in the Allebahstian Embassy is even longer than I remember! Finally hit a checkpoint. That's only Middle Part 1, to boot!
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I thought about typing up a post re the humour of various cases but your more recent posts make it clear that we find very different things funny (which is okay!). I thought E1-5 was peak Larry ("Keep saying things like that and your already incredibly small number of friends will decrease by one!"), while that Lang thing just totally misfired for me (and gets an extra demerit for contradicting a serious plot point).

Oh well, I agree about de Killer for what it's worth. Great times.
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Larry has some decent one-liners in there (nowhere near his best stuff though), but the substance of his role in E1-5 is pretty terrible. Most of Larry's humor here comes from Franziska and Lang making fun of the fact that this guy is supposedly Edgeworth's friend. It's also part of why I think he's a good fit in AAI despite the fact that I think his role in the game is stupid because Flanderized Larry plays off of Edgeworth much better than he does Phoenix. Edgeworth is repeatedly mortified by the stuff Larry says and does here. I don't give Larry himself a whole lot of credit for that though since he's just the punchline.

They somehow greatly improved Larry as a character again by the time E2-3 rolls around though.

oh well he's still way better than Oldbag here either way

NeoElfboy posted...

while that Lang thing just totally misfired for me (and gets an extra demerit for contradicting a serious plot point).

how do you even enjoy Ace Attorney humor if this is a problem for you

one of its greatest strengths is its ability to seamlessly interweave comedy and drama together

like Edgeworth's face turn in 1-3 is super meaningful character development for him...while he hopes to come up with an objection while he was objecting but didn't and says unironically "Indeed! Verily I say, ergo!" while stumbling over himself trying to point out the problem with Vasquez's testimony
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Yeah, the interweaving is great! I'm not sure where you got the idea I don't like that. I just praised de Killer, and I love how the series simultaneously blends the high-stakes 2-4 trial day 2 with jokes about how the judge thinks Phoenix wants to have him assassinated. Or the bit with Edgeworth you said (incidentally 1-3 is my pick for funniest case of that game, and a lot of that is Edgeworth).

I'll clarify why my comments: the joke of Lang's thing is pretty much "Lang doesn't actually know his subordinates that well -> JUST KIDDING he knows them super-duper-awesomely well!" Setting aside that I don't think this is that great a joke, it directly contradicts the fact that Lang... doesn't know Shih-na (his #1 assistant) that well, and that this is an important plot point!

Now that I think about it, it would have been neat if they'd stopped that joke prior to the final subversion. Wouldn't have been the funniest joke ever, but it would have been neat forshadowing for the Shih-na reveal, especially if they moved the joke a bit earlier in the game.
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I don't see how that's a contradiction, Shih-na obviously didn't tell him about her past, so he didn't know.

Shih-na isn't one of the MIB though, and regardless, I don't think one mole slipping through the cracks undermines or contradicts the fact that Lang cares about and knows his men really well. Like, the fact that Shih-na could fool him is proof of how good she is at what she does, just like how she fooled Byrne and Badd, who were also both really good at what they do. Also, the fact that he takes the bullet for her and considers his failure to spot her betrayal his own personal responsibility is further proof of how Lang views his people.
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