Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 5: The Pursuit (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

She actually has two lines in E2-4 at the beginning when you first get to the Grand Tower and you interrupt them in the middle of filming because Gumshoe thinks it's real.
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Oh that's right.

I always kinda intuively thought of Sebastian being only just behind Courtney as the game's rival figure but he's actually way back in lines, interesting.

Lang having 400 lines in a case where he doesn't actually matter that much says a fair deal about what's wrong with E2-5. It frustrates me that the game wasn't willing to lean more heavily on Courtney, Ray, and Sebastian for the final case. The game does a good job of wrapping up its villain plot but the supporting non-villains get shafted compared with how Edgeworth, Franziska, Godot, Blackquill, etc. get their story arcs nicely tied up in the last case.

Although hey you're about to play the other AA game I would consider to also have this problem...!
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Lang being such a big part of E2-5 is really weird, I like him but I don't really understand what E2-5 was going for in general

E2-5 is all about the death of the president, so it's not really that strange to me that Lang's a pretty big part of it. The strange thing to me was that you thought he wasn't. He's your all-access pass to SS-5, so he's pretty indispensable for that part of the case, if nothing else. Courtney and John are also pretty closely connected to the president (the real one anyway), so again, no surprise their line count is pretty high. I'm not sure how much higher you wanted Courtney's line count to be there if you're complaining about her not being involved enough! She's not the "rival" in E2-5 anymore, so she's not going to be the one trying to get in his way now. She's the one needing to be helped for most of the case.

Ray, Franziska, and Sebastian don't have much to do with this case outside of the trial (Sebastian doesn't show up again period once the trial ends, in fact, except for the credits). They have no real connection to E2-5 other than Simon being Gustavia's son, and Ray chimes in for a while once that revelation pops up.

Regardless, I thought Sebastian's arc was wrapped up very well in E2-5. It's one of the few well executed parts of Beginning, in fact! Ray's place in the plot was mostly done by the end of E2-3, and I was satisfied with his part there. There wasn't much more that needed to be done with him other than Edgeworth turning down his offer at the end.
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Lang seems right to me. they pretty clearly related the entire first two arcs to Lang.

Simon having only 380 lines seems kinda crazy for such a central character. you included the phone calls too I assume, yeah?

edit: then again, Manfred only has 444 and that includes E1-4 and E2-3
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Yeah, I gave him credit for the phone calls.

Simon really only has a big role in End, and that's the shortest part of the case, to boot. He ends up with about as many lines as Alba if you take out his E2-2 appearance.
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I'm just gonna have to guess about who's speaking during the 4-1 intro here

also the font in AJ HD is weird compared to other games, almost seems like they just took it straight from the mobile version
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oh nice in this version you can save without returning to the title screen

whoa this Judge sprite is something else
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Winston: I believe the defense was waxing poetic in an attempt to mystify those present and impress women.

One of Winston's better lines, for sure. I do like how they drop the hint about Gavin not knowing which cards they were playing with when you've only got a black and white photo at this point.
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I wonder why the series used black and white pictures to begin with. Since it started on the GBA, it couldn't have been due to a technical limitation.
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I love Apollo's blatant Phoenix fanboyism during 4-1. He might as well be a proxy for the player.

Apollo: That's impossible because...Phoenix Wright can't lose!
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LeonhartFour posted...

Ray, Franziska, and Sebastian don't have much to do with this case outside of the trial (Sebastian doesn't show up again period once the trial ends, in fact, except for the credits). They have no real connection to E2-5 other than Simon being Gustavia's son, and Ray chimes in for a while once that revelation pops up.

This is all correct but I don't think it's a very good thing. Making your final case not about the characters your game is nominally about is a weird choice and doesn't work very well narratively.

Agreed that Sebastian's bit in that case is good and he's wrapped up well, it just doesn't matter much to the case itself.

SS-5 is just not very good, the more I think about it the worse I feel about it in the context of the game (I already know I don't like it in a vacuum; I'm trying to separate that for this conversation though). Its connection to the present stuff is kinda tenuous (mostly it's a roundabout motivation for Simon), and your "pass" to it is a character who isn't well-connected to the rest of AAI2.

"I don't really understand what E2-5 was going for in general" sums it up pretty well for me.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Its connection to the present stuff is kinda tenuous (mostly it's a roundabout motivation for Simon)

doesn't sound tenuous to me then

the main villain's motivation is kind of a big deal in Ace Attorney, and this is the purpose of most flashback cases to begin with

SS-5 provides motives and connections for all of the game's major villains, really, except for Gustavia. Roland in particular benefits from having something deeper to connect her to everything, especially with Dogen.

NeoElfboy posted...

your "pass" to it is a character who isn't well-connected to the rest of AAI2.

I don't really feel like this matters with a character who's already established. It's not like they dropped a brand new character in there. You're already familiar with Lang. He doesn't need to be connected to the rest of the game to be there. I don't think anyone's complaining about Edgeworth dropping in for 2-4 or 3-5 when he hasn't been involved in the rest of the game, and he has no real connection to the plot in 3-5 at all. Lang is good in this case, and that's all I care about, just like with Edgeworth in 2-4 and 3-5.

NeoElfboy posted...

This is all correct but I don't think it's a very good thing. Making your final case not about the characters your game is nominally about is a weird choice and doesn't work very well narratively.

I'm not an E2-5 defender, but I don't really get this complaint either. You really wanted a massive game like AAI2 to save the resolution of all of its plot threads for the epic case? Ray and Courtney already had pretty satisfying climaxes in E2-3 and E2-4. Kay's big case in this game is E2-4, too. Sebastian gets one in E2-5 (and it doesn't matter to me that it doesn't matter to the rest of the case. Good content is good content regardless of "relevance"). It's not like all these characters were left out to dry and nothing was ever done with them. This isn't a Klavier situation. E2-5 is already too big for its own good without trying to pile more stuff into it. E2-5 is about Edgeworth vs. Simon at its core because that's secretly what the entire game has been about, so I guess in a sense, they did make it about nominally who the game is about. E2-5 has problems, but I don't feel like any of these things is particularly high on the list.

also E2-5 is a prime example of how super big casts don't necessarily mean more suspense because the list of real suspects is still extremely small (just like in pretty much every case)
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ss-5 is part of what makes e2-5 sooo good. best use of little thief by far.
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Nah, the Haunted House is still the best use of Little Thief. Multiple recreations was not a great feature. By the time I was done with AAI2, I was ready to be done with Little Thief.
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https://imgur.com/MC78Ghk

seriously though this new AJ HD Judge sprite is kinda crazy

I guess they had to redo him from scratch since they used his OT sprite in the original
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The best thing about AJ HD is that they fixed the problem where everyone only had one blinking frame in AAT

The worst thing is that some of Apollo's sprites make him look like he has a terrible skin condition

I wish they had gone into more detail about the poker game between Phoenix and Zak. I get that they can't give away too much about Zak at this point, but I kinda wish they had explained exactly why Phoenix took his locket at least. Was it a bet between the two of them that Phoenix got the locket if he won or what?
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LeonhartFour posted...

I wish they had gone into more detail about

AJ in a nutshell

for everything except panties
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well yeah pretty much

and except magic tricks during concerts
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Russian waitress Olga >> Quick Fingers Orly
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Kristoph: Push him harder, Justice! Break him! It's just you and the witness in the ring. Go for the KO!
Apollo: (Ugh. Why do I get the feeling we're not on our client's side anymore?)

one of my favorite Apollo lines from AJ

he really sells you on what a big deal 4-1 is
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oh man I remember marking out so hard when Hobonix did the finger point

that would be a top tier moment for me

...if I were to rank Ace Attorney moments that is *cough*
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LeonhartFour posted...

I wish they had gone into more detail about the poker game between Phoenix and Zak. I get that they can't give away too much about Zak at this point, but I kinda wish they had explained exactly why Phoenix took his locket at least. Was it a bet between the two of them that Phoenix got the locket if he won or what?

I thought it was just because it was locket of his (or their) daughter. I don't remember it having a bigger purpose in the plot.
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_SecretSquirrel posted...

I thought it was just because it was locket of his (or their) daughter. I don't remember it having a bigger purpose in the plot.

Yeah, but it was Zak's originally. Why did Phoenix take it? It didn't seem like Zak gave it over willingly either. They make it sound like Phoenix took it from him.
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Kristoph: Is...this your idea of revenge, Phoenix Wright? Revenge for the events that took away your attorney's badge seven years ago!
Phoenix: My past is like my logic, straight and true. Nothing's changed. All I did was point the finger of justice in the proper direction.

whew 4-1 nearly complete

numbers soonish
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Total lines by character:

1. Phoenix Wright - 15331
2. Miles Edgeworth - 14764
3. Maya Fey - 4441
4. The Judge - 4094
5. Dick Gumshoe - 4047
6. Kay Faraday - 3370
7. Franziska von Karma - 2314
8. Mia Fey - 1418
9. Ema Skye - 1347
10. Shi-Long Lang - 1101
11. Pearl Fey - 1035
12. Justine Courtney - 1016
13. Larry Butz - 1008
14. Raymond Shields - 971
15. Godot - 902
16. Gregory Edgeworth - 649
17. Lotta Hart - 648
18. Tyrell Badd - 593
19. Dahlia Hawthorne - 578
20. Wendy Oldbag - 553
21. Sebastian Debeste - 521
22. Calisto Yew/Shih-na - 489
23. Adrian Andrews - 459
24. Winston Payne - 453
25. Manfred von Karma - 444
26. Apollo Justice - 440
27. The Judge's Brother - 421
28. Shelly de Killer - 387
29. Will Powers - 380
30. Simon Keyes - 380
31. Bikini - 351
32. Maggey Byrde - 323
33. Lawrence "Moe" Curls - 320
34. Quercus Alba - 303
35. Luke Atmey - 292
36. Damon Gant - 285
37. Ini Miney - 275
38. Angel Starr - 272
39. Ron DeLite - 271
40. Rhoda Teneiro - 268
41. Katherine Hall - 267
42. Blaise Debeste - 265
43. Regina Berry - 261
44. Jake Marshall - 257
45. Jean Armstrong - 251
46. Nicole Swift - 250
47. Lana Skye - 249
48. Victor Kudo - 247
49. Marvin Grossberg - 234
50. Jacques Portsman - 231
51. Frank Sahwit - 219
52. Patricia Roland - 217
53. Dane Gustavia - 209
54. Horace Knightley - 209
55. Maximillion Galactica - 203
56. Ben & Trilo Quist - 200
57. Penny Nichols - 194
58. Kristoph Gavin - 193
59. Mike Meekins - 183
60. Ken "Acro" Dingling - 182
61. Iris - 181
62. Furio Tigre - 176
63. Matt Engarde - 171
64. Sirhan Dogen - 170
65. Cammy Meele - 168
66. Morgan Fey - 165
67. Redd White - 162
68. John Marsh - 153
69. Delicia Scones - 151
70. Colias Palaeno - 150
71. Dee Vasquez - 148
72. Zinc Lablanc - 146
73. Desiree DeLite - 142
74. Trilo Quist - 140
75. Cody Hackins - 135
76. Lauren Paups - 130
77. Karin Jenson - 129
78. Olga Orly - 126
79. Di-Jun Huang (Body Double) - 110
80. Richard Wellington - 107
81. April May - 104
82. Jay Elbird - 102
83. Yanni Yogi - 98
84. Lance Amano - 92
85. Jeff Master - 90
86. Viola Cadaverini - 80
87. Terry Fawles - 74
88. The Bellboy - 72
89. Director Hotti - 71
90. Ernest Amano - 68
91. Benjamin Woodman - 60
92. Sal Manella - 59
93. Chief of Detectives - 55
94. Bonnie Young - 53
95. Lisa Basil - 46
96. Turner Grey - 39
97. Elise Deauxnim - 30
98. Missile - 20
99. Polly - 20
100. Trucy Wright - 5
101. Zak Gramarye - 5

Overall total lines - 76648

Total lines by case:

2-4 - 5946
1-5 - 5913
3-5 - 5815
E1-5 - 4831
E2-5 - 4777
3-2 - 4151
3-3 - 4063
E2-3 - 3959
E2-2 - 3936
2-3 - 3884
1-4 - 3466
2-2 - 3119
E1-4 - 2935
E2-4 - 2868
1-3 - 2741
E1-3 - 2412
E1-2 - 1995
E2-1 - 1923
1-2 - 1773
4-1 - 1421
3-4 - 1225
3-1 - 1167
E1-1 - 1039
2-2 - 899
1-1 - 389

Total lines by character per case:

Turnabout Trump (4-1)

1. Apollo Justice - 440 (30.96%)
2. Phoenix Wright - 257 (18.09%)
3. The Judge - 248 (17.45%)
4. Kristoph Gavin - 193 (13.58%)
5. Winston Payne - 144 (10.13%)
6. Olga Orly - 126 (8.87%)
7. Trucy Wright - 5
8. Zak Gramarye - 5
9. Other - 3
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poor Gumshoe

couldn't even stay ahead of the Judge for one case
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LeonhartFour posted...

_SecretSquirrel posted...

I thought it was just because it was locket of his (or their) daughter. I don't remember it having a bigger purpose in the plot.

Yeah, but it was Zak's originally. Why did Phoenix take it? It didn't seem like Zak gave it over willingly either. They make it sound like Phoenix took it from him.

I thought Phoenix took the locket from Zak's corpse. It's not like he would have needed it anymore.
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No, Olga saw him take it, which couldn't have happened after Zak died. It's why she originally claims Phoenix attempted to strangle him.
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time for the worst investigation day in the series
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prosecutor in fifth place huh

wonder if that's happened before
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Is 2-1 missing from "total lines by case"? I don't see it.
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bwburke94 posted...

Is 2-1 missing from "total lines by case"? I don't see it.

oh whoops that 2-2 at the bottom should be 2-1

not sure how I haven't caught that sooner

transience posted...

prosecutor in fifth place huh

wonder if that's happened before

it's a fairly common placement for non-epic cases actually
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The main character, assistant, judge, and one key case-specific character (often the killer, though not always) being ahead seems pretty par for the course so far.
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Indeed. The prosecutor has never finished higher than third and has even been as low as seventh a couple of times.
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I can't think of any case where the prosecutor has a chance of getting 2nd. 6-4? I still think Nahyuta comes out below the Judge and Uendo, depending on how you count his lines (oh, have fun with that!).

I like how after just 4-1 Apollo nearly has as many lines as Manfred von Karma

oh. I think Payne only seemed notable because it was a trial only case.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

I can't think of any case where the prosecutor has a chance of getting 2nd. 6-4? I still think Nahyuta comes out below the Judge and Uendo, depending on how you count his lines (oh, have fun with that!).

Surely Simon has more lines as well.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

I can't think of any case where the prosecutor has a chance of getting 2nd. 6-4? I still think Nahyuta comes out below the Judge and Uendo, depending on how you count his lines (oh, have fun with that!).

Surely Simon has more lines as well.

Does he? I'm not really sure.

Now that I think about it, maybe not? He has a big, memorable role in the case but that doesn't always translate into lines.

Prosecutor vs assistant in a trial-only case is a tough fight. The prosecutor wins in 2-1, 3-1, and 3-4, but in two out of three cases the assistant is absent for a good chunk of the case. The assistant wins in 1-1 and 4-1 but one of those may be coloured by 1-1 being tutorial-heavy (and Mia delivers much of it) while the other is coloured by Kristoph spending some time as a witness/killer.
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I'd still take the Judge to get second if all else fails in a trial-only case. He's gotten second in every trial-only case thus far except for 4-1, where he just barely finished behind Phoenix for 2nd.
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Apollo: How about you go through me when talking to her, okay?
Trucy: Huh? That seems like a bit of a needless procedure.
Apollo: I'm a lawyer. I live for needless procedures.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Apollo: How about you go through me when talking to her, okay?
Trucy: Huh? That seems like a bit of a needless procedure.
Apollo: I'm a lawyer. I live for needless procedures.

Quite the establishment of Apollo's character.
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One of the things I like about Apollo is that he clearly loves his job and takes it very seriously.
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Phoenix: Feel free to drop by anytime. I'd be happy to help with anything not involving money.
Apollo: (Goodbye, quid pro quo. Hello, pro bono. *sigh*)
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Apollo > Phoenix. fight me

whew 4-2 investigation day 1 complete, thank goodness

Paratroopa1 posted...

Apollo > Phoenix. fight me

I'd be willing to agree with you over the last three games

OT Phoenix is too OP though
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