Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 5: The Pursuit (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also yeah I love Ray in E2-3 but I'm disappointed by how beside the point he is in the rest of the cases

I kinda wish he just replaced Kay

if we removed Ray from E2-5 maybe we could skip that atrocious trial segment so that might actually help the case a lot

but yeah I don't really like the P.I.C. plotline at all
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The trial segment feels pretty independent of Ray and Franziska. They're just there to have some named characters in the role and also give them a bit more screentime. I don't think you can blame either of them for it. (I generally share your low opinion of it though.)
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yeah, agreed. that could have been anyone, or it could have been payne and some unnamed defender. same deal.

I don't take nearly the offense to that section as you do - but then I also don't take much offense to 4-0.
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the only reason we even see that part is because Ray and Franziska are in it

we could just skip over it entirely otherwise

the E2-5 trial and 4-0 are both just so poorly written and I can't just handwave bad writing, especially when you have people acting out of character in order to make it "work"
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Anyway, I watched the end of 2-2 in the anime. I do like the changes they made to the case here, particularly with giving Morgan a much more active role.

I'll watch some of the 2-3 episodes tomorrow. Curious to hear the casting decisions for the cast there.
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I'm starting to realize there are large chunks of AAI2 I don't remember. The fact I watched dowolf's translation and never played it probably has something to do with that.
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Well, it's a pretty massive game, too, so it's likely you won't retain large portions of it if you've never played it for yourself.
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AAI2 generally did a better job of making its cameo appearances worthwhile compared to the first game, but Ema's feels kinda pointless. Plus, it's weird with the whole "yeah I know I just flew all the way back to Europe a few days ago but I'm back in America again" thing.

although I do love all the callbacks to previous cases with the various pieces of evidence in the storeroom
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I love how Knightley's breakdown back in Case 1 actually foreshadows the illegal evidence auctions.
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E2-5 trial is way worse than 4-0 tbqh
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I'm finishing up 6-5 and man, it went from 'this is easily the best case in the series' to 'oh man this is really rough around the edges.' I'll post more thoughts when I finish tonight.
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Yeah, 6-5 has some rough spots, but I still think it's the best case post-OT in the series.
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huh weird they kept Max's buzzword as GORGEOUS in the dub instead of changing it back to FABULOUS

even weirder because they still occasionally describe stuff about him as FABULOUS
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Okay, finished 6-5, here are some thoughts. This could have been the best case in the series, and it really was, until the Khurain trial. A lot of the major plot twists were blindingly obvious and it was tedious that the game had Apollo and Phoenix so oblivious. Obviously Nayna was Amara. It was super frustrating that the Justice Minister's notepad claiming Nayna had a diamond tattoo on her forehead, something Amara didn't have, amounted to nothing. It was also ridiculously stupid that the fact Rayfa is Dhurke and Amara's child was played out as long as it was and was the final big twist. Pretty underwhelming considering you know as soon as Rayfa sees the picture.

Other than that Dhurke being dead the whole time was an awesome twist and I really liked Ghuran not being able to channel spirits. Really, really great case other than what I pointed out. Top 5 for sure, but it could have easily been the best.

Best case in the entire series is, imo, 6-2. Great premise, fantastic villain, great use of more ancillary members of the Wright Anything Agency, cool murder, wonderful breakdown, awesome rendition of Apollo's theme that I find better than a lot of the Cornered songs, etc.
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no case after AA1 is without its rough edges but the mega-long cases in AAI2 and the DS games will only amplify that

curious as to what you mean specifically though!

(edit) just saw your post. entirely agreed with the point about rayfa as the kid, but disagree that that's enough to bring down the case after the 2 awesome parts you mentioned, and lolwut @ 6-2 being the best!
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Oh and 6-2 was the perfect length. A lot of the more 'epic' cases tend to drag on. This was definitely the case with 6-5.
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OliviaTremor posted...

Best case in the entire series is, imo, 6-2.

OliviaTremor posted...

wonderful breakdown

you might be the only person in the world with these two opinions
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OliviaTremor posted...

Oh and 6-2 was the perfect length. A lot of the more 'epic' cases tend to drag on. This was definitely the case with 6-5.

fun fact: 6-2 is almost nearly as long as 5-5
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Maybe. I've seen a lot of praise for 6-2 not on board 8. I love it. Roger Retinz was a great villain with a well defined motivation. Figuring out how he killed the victim while not present was awesome. It was ridiculous but this whole series is ridiculous. Let's not act like it's any more ridiculous than the body pendulum in 3-5 or the 20 foot leap in 5-5. Great case, made Trucy not a bland one note character, arguably the first case where Apollo really shines due to the lack of Nick, Athena is great, etc.
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i can agree with a lot of that, but imma vouch for 5-2's apollo!
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oh I think 6-2 is a good case, but I could never call it one of the best

I never have a problem with murder plots being ridiculous, only when they're hard to follow or poorly explained, like E2-2 or 6-2 (actually pretty much only those two)

also Trucy was never a bland character (she's one of the few bright spots in AJ) but it was good to give her some development

5-2 was the first great Apollo case without Phoenix helping him

Apollo and Athena are always great together
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OliviaTremor posted...

It was super frustrating that the Justice Minister's notepad claiming Nayna had a diamond tattoo on her forehead, something Amara didn't have, amounted to nothing.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong but I thought Amara did have the diamond on her forehead. At the very least I'm pretty sure she did in the picture of her from the past.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong but I thought Amara did have the diamond on her forehead. At the very least I'm pretty sure she did in the picture of her from the past.

http://aceattorney.wikia.com/wiki/File:Amara_Sigatar_Khura%27in_-_normal.gif

she does
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Yeah I thought that was just like a Hindu dot. I expected a more pronounced diamond so I guess that's on me.
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I mean Nayna's diamond is just as big
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best part of the 2-3 anime adaptation is that they actually show Gumshoe's crime scene model of how Max flew that night
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6-2 > 5-2

Neither are anywhere near the top, though!
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6-2 being near the top at least makes sense to me, unlike 6-3! It's not anywhere close to my personal favourite mostly because Bonnie/Betty are underwhelming and the murder is a bit too crazy/not believable for my tastes, but Roger and Trucy are both pretty great, and Athena/Apollo definitely have one of the best dynamics and 6-2 is the only SoJ case it gets to shine.

Though IMO 5-2 is better and definitely Apollo's big coming-out party as an attorney to me.

6-5 is a very good case that falls short of the absolute top tier to me and that's partly due to its poor pacing, which is a recurring problem in SoJ for me. I also think Apollo vs Phoenix is really hokey (and did we really need to retread that 2-4 plot point that hard) but I think I'm in the minority on that one. The Dhurke plot twist is super-great though... miight even be the best in the series since Engarde.
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Another problem I had with 6-5 is that it's really ridiculous with all the channeling and stuff. It's a relatively straightforward case, despite Dhurke being dead, but the way everything plays out in the trial just drags on and on and on. The whole footprints from Dhurke's place and putting his clothes in the sarcophagus. That was another thing, why have an incinerator and a gem covered in soot if you don't use the incinerator. I was so incredibly hoping Dhurke's body wasn't in the sarcophagus since that was too obvious and you had to show they incinerated his body or something.

I dunno. Most cases I finish and think are really tight and well done. This one just has me wondering so much about the pacing and whether I actually thought all the evidence pieces and how they were used was effective.

For what it's worth 2-4 and 1-5 are my next favorite cases, but it's been a while.
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OliviaTremor posted...

I dunno. Most cases I finish and think are really tight and well done. This one just has me wondering so much about the pacing and whether I actually thought all the evidence pieces and how they were used was effective.

For what it's worth 2-4 and 1-5 are my next favorite cases, but it's been a while.

yeah, i can respect that. the series generally believes in More Is More, so often you'll take some bad with the good.

i don't think 6-5 is particularly more bloated than any other case, but i guess it's all relative, and that you're comparing it on the basis of its complexity
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NeoElfboy posted...

Athena/Apollo definitely have one of the best dynamics and 6-2 is the only SoJ case it gets to shine.

Nah, they're great when they're together in 6-5, too. They aren't together for the full case, but trial day 1 and investigation 2 are both excellent. Athena is the one who really sells the showdown between Apollo and Phoenix.

OliviaTremor posted...

That was another thing, why have an incinerator and a gem covered in soot if you don't use the incinerator.

...that wasn't an incinerator and that wasn't soot. It's an incense burner and it's ash.
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Could have sworn it said incinerator.

Well, why is Amara so dumb? It seems like 15 years ago when she ran away Dhurke, had Rayfa, etc and knew her sister framed him she could have just taken back the throne by saying 'my sister is a fraud she can't channel spirits'. Why did it take until Apollo? Why didn't she just say that at any time at all? I get when Rayfa was a hostage, but even then it is super flimsy. What was Garan going to do after exposed? Just like kill Rayfa regardless out of spite?
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It seems more like Amara didn't know and actually believed Ga'ran. She just couldn't stop loving Dhurke even so. Amara definitely loves her sister, too. She's also submissive to the point of being a total doormat, which is a definite flaw with her character, since she just enabled Ga'ran.

OliviaTremor posted...

What was Garan going to do after exposed? Just like kill Rayfa regardless out of spite?

That whole "sins of the father are visited upon their children" thing would've ruined Rayfa's social status, so that was always held over her head since she would be the daughter of the nation's biggest criminal.
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I guess. Anyway I suppose I'm done thinking about 6-5. Maybe I just wanted something more or a more interesting murder scenario or something. I dunno. A lot of the ideas I enjoyed but I can't help but feel underwhelmed.
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I can kind of agree that the coolest part of 6-5 wasn't the murder itself, but the good parts are so strong that it doesn't matter that much. 2-4 is like that for me, too.
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Yeah, 6-5 has some issues, but the high points (of which there are many) far outweigh the little problems I have with it.
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Apollo's first great case is 4-3, you guys are weird

I mean the first case where Apollo does most of the work by himself is 4-3 but he's so horribly incompetent on day 1 (seriously the worst playable attorney we've ever seen in that regard) that it counterbalances how good he is on the second day
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I like that Franziska still holds a grudge against Lotta for 2-2

also Sebastian is the one character Franziska's penchant for excessive whipping works on
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Franziska vs Larry is a thing of beauty.

And yeah Athena and Apollo are great in 6-5 too, although Athena feels very artificially shoved aside in two key parts of the case which kinda annoyed me. As mentioned I don't like Apollo vs Phoenix (even though I found plenty to enjoy about that trial anyway) so nobody was going to be selling me on that!
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man, 6-2 is not a good case
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6-2's okay, but I'd probably put it below any other case in the game besides 6-6.
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NeoElfboy posted...

Franziska vs Larry is a thing of beauty.

And yeah Athena and Apollo are great in 6-5 too, although Athena feels very artificially shoved aside in two key parts of the case which kinda annoyed me. As mentioned I don't like Apollo vs Phoenix (even though I found plenty to enjoy about that trial anyway) so nobody was going to be selling me on that!

Well, the whole going to the wrong airport thing was dumb, but she didn't have a place in that first investigation day, so they had to find some excuse to get her out of the way. Wish they could have come up with a better one, but it is what it is. Phoenix keeping her out of the trial because he was concerned for her safety is legit though. That's one of those instances where he's well within his rights to pull rank.
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Why don't you like 6-2 Tranny? And board 8 appears to be a serious anomaly when it comes to this case.
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OliviaTremor posted...

board 8 appears to be a serious anomaly when it comes to this case.

in what sense

I don't think 6-2 is regarded as a top tier case anywhere

I'm pretty sure it's firmly a mid-tier case here and wherever you go
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man how did the anime do such a good job with 2-2 and 2-3 and then mishandle 2-4

actually I guess I'll see how I feel about it the second time around
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why are they pronouncing his name "un-guard" in the dub
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thank you Edgeworth for pronouncing Engarde's name properly

I really like de Killer's English voice

also the first episode of the 2-4 adaptation is good

I guess it goes off the rails after this
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Edgeworth: Kay is not the criminal! She was attacked by the person in the red raincoat!
Courtney: But there's no evidence of that, is there?

uh I mean have you looked at Kay lately

I do like how E2-4 twists and turns several times on who the victim was
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