Board 8 > Smash Bros Ultimate General Discussion: Episode IV: A New Hope

(+) Yeah! (+)

Waluigi is extremely significant and rare gutter trash, tyvm.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

obviously Wario and Yoshi are "Mario characters" in general, but they're specifically in Smash as representatives of their own series.
In the hypothetical nightmare dimension where Wario Land and WarioWare don't exist, Wario wouldn't have been in Brawl. He'd be no more significant than common gutter trash like Waluigi.

While I wouldn't necessarily argue against that, I'd still argue that it's still not really enough to stop somebody from lumping them in as "Mario characters/reps" overall. There's a reason they all got put next to each other on select screens. Hell, Yoshi's even directly in the middle of the Mario characters in the Smash 4 select screens. He may represent "Yoshi," but they put him in between Mario characters on a select screen that sorts them by series.

Like, if somebody says "Mario has 8/9 characters," I'd never say they're wrong, because even Nintendo didn't do much to set them apart, and in fact went out of their way not to.
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Warios been in his own games since like 1994, and theres been a shit load of them. Just because he guest stars in Mario sports and Mario Kart doesnt make him a Mario character. DK, Link, Inkling, Isabelle, etc are all in those things too...

Mario sports, party, kart, etc arent even mainline Mario games. Theyre entirely seperate game series themselves... which means Waluigi isnt even a Mario character lmao. Hes just like a... Mario sports character I guess? Like Alex, Nina, etc from Mario Tennis.

This is kinda why Waluigi is a bad choice for Smash. Hes a seat filler.

I guess he could use sports gear as his moves, but Peach is already way ahead of him
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I think it's super weird to call Mario characters and Mario sports characters different things. Those are all Mario games!

Wario has his own series, yes, but it's incorrect to say he guest stars in something he originated in. The first Wario Land was even called Super Mario Land 3. They're directly connected, you can't level him with Link, Inkling, Isabelle and even Donkey Kong. Smash recognizes it as a spin-off too.

Yoshi is a completely different case though. I think they just wanted to make it appear like the original 8 were from 8 different things. Yoshi still appears in mainline Mario games, which are more common than his own. He's popular enough to have his own games, but so has Luigi and I'm sure no one would say he isn't a Mario character. Even in most Yoshi games, Mario is right there as a crucial part of the plot. And as has been said, Smash itself even put him in the middle of the Mario characters last time.
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I think its perfectly reasonable to separate mainline Mario from Mario Kart, Mario Party, etc on the basis that they all have entirely different game mechanics from each other.

SMB1 and SMO are both mechanically about the same thing - jumping, platforming, collecting things, etc. But youd have to concede something like DDR Mario Mix is a different beast entirely. Or is that a Mario game too?
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How is calling a spin-off with huge overlap in characters and worlds an "Entirely seperate game series" perfectable reasonable.

Yeah, they're different genres, but it's the same universe. Saying Waluigi is not a Mario character makes no sense to me.

DDR had long been an established franchise, so Mario Mix is Mario and guest starring in a DDR game.
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So just to be clear, in your opinion, DDR Mario Mix fits under a blanket Super Mario series, right?

So do you think Hyrule Warriors counts as a The Legend of Zelda mainline game?

Because I can assure you it doesnt
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When you start trying to get so specific that you're not calling Waluigi a "Mario character," you're going too far.
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TomNook7 posted...

So just to be clear, in your opinion, DDR Mario Mix fits under a blanket Super Mario series, right?

So do you think Hyrule Warriors counts as a The Legend of Zelda mainline game?

Because I can assure you it doesnt

Holy intellectually dishonest argument, Batman!
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How in the world did you get that idea when I just specifically said what I thought DDR was.

They're a huge difference in not being a mainline game and being an entirely different game series.
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Can I split Fire Emblem 3DS games into a separate series too because the game marketing and design paradigms changed so much between those and the earlier games

Now presto Fire Emblem and Fire Emblem 3DS are two distinct series with a reasonable amount of reps each.
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o ya go my waifu emblem
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Lopen posted...

Can I split Fire Emblem 3DS games into a separate series too because the game marketing and design paradigms changed so much between those and the earlier games

Now presto Fire Emblem and Fire Emblem 3DS are two distinct series with a reasonable amount of reps each.

No, 3ds is still over-rep'd. ;)
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But what series would Celica represent if she was added?
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I guess I misunderstood when he said "so Mario Mix is Mario"
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Captain Falcon's moveset and character has nothing to do with his original series, so technically F-Zero has zero reps.
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ctesjbuvf posted...

Yoshi is a completely different case though. I think they just wanted to make it appear like the original 8 were from 8 different things.

At the time of the original SSB they were pretty intent on trying to make Yoshi his own franchise. It just kinda stuck because of that. He does have far more games of his own though.
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Grand Kirby posted...

Captain Falcon's moveset and character has nothing to do with his original series, so technically F-Zero has zero reps.

Or does it have... F-Zero reps
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Grade: F-
Score: Zero
Reps: None

this is so sad, why won't sakurai do something about this
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TomNook7 posted...

I guess I misunderstood when he said "so Mario Mix is Mario"

Well, when most people say "It's a Mario game," or "It's a Pokemon game," or "It's a Sonic game," and so on, they mean... A game that primarily focuses on those characters/that series, not just "main-line game." Like, if you say Mario Tennis is "A Mario game," it's because it's a game about Mario featuring Mario characters. It's kinda obvious that it's not a mainline title, and thus there's not really any reason to differentiate them. Super Mario World is a Mario game. Mario Tennis is a Mario game. Mario Teaches Typing is a Mario game.

With Wario, most people know of him from Mario games. Mario Kart, Mario Tennis, Mario Party, and so on. He's in 99.9% of the side titles, and even a few of the main. That's why, even if he technically represents WarioWare in Smash, he's still referred to as a "Mario character." That's what he came from, that's what he was designed for, and it's what still makes up 90% of his game appearances. Same with Yoshi. And Nintendo illustrates that by putting them next to (Or, in Yoshi's case, right in the middle of) the Mario characters in Smash. They know people make that connection.
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the "next to in smash" argument is kind of stupid

have you seen the placement for fire emblem characters
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TomNook7 posted...

I guess I misunderstood when he said "so Mario Mix is Mario"

I guess that's fair as I just noticed there's an "and" right after that shouldn't have been there, so that's on me.

pjbasis posted...

At the time of the original SSB they were pretty intent on trying to make Yoshi his own franchise. It just kinda stuck because of that. He does have far more games of his own though.

Even if Mario doesn't appear in most Yoshi games, I'm pretty sure Yoshi appears in more mainline Mario titles than Yoshi titles.

SantaRPidgey posted...

the "next to in smash" argument is kind of stupid

have you seen the placement for fire emblem characters

Well, that's because they seperate clones and DLC (in the order it came) before anything, which throws them all over the place. The character selection screen clearly shows they recognize Wario and consider Yoshi a Mario character today.
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SantaRPidgey posted...

the "next to in smash" argument is kind of stupid

have you seen the placement for fire emblem characters

They've put Mario/Yoshi/Wario all together for two games straight now, though, so it's not really a coincidence.

As ctes said, the Fire Emblem situation is because they separate clones/DLC. Outside of clones/DLC, Smash 4 very specifically sorts by series.
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ctesjbuvf posted...

Even if Mario doesn't appear in most Yoshi games, I'm pretty sure Yoshi appears in more mainline Mario titles than Yoshi titles.

Definitely not.
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Waluigi1 posted...

ctesjbuvf posted...

Even if Mario doesn't appear in most Yoshi games, I'm pretty sure Yoshi appears in more mainline Mario titles than Yoshi titles.

Definitely not.

1. Yoshi Cookie
2. Yoshi Safari
3. SMW 2 (Though it feels weird just counting this for Yoshi based on the name)
4. Yoshi Topsy-Turvy
5. Yoshi Touch & Go
6. Yoshi Island DS
7. Yoshi's New Island
8. Yoshi's Woolly World

vs.

1. Super Mario World
2. Super Mario 64 DS
3. New Super Mario Bros.
4. New Super Mario Bros. Wii
5. Super Mario Galaxy 2
6. New Super Mario Bros. U
7. Super Mario Odyssey
8. New Super Luigi U/Super Mario Maker (I'll count these as only .5 each since they're not directly mainline games but still pretty much are)

That's not including stuff stuff like original SM64/Mario Bros Deluxe/etc. where he makes appearances but doesn't really do much. Also doesn't count Mario RPG, Paper Mario series, or the Mario & Luigi games, since those are technically spin-offs, even if they're not sports/ensemble games.

So yeah at best they're tied, at worst, he's right that Yoshi appears in more Mario games than Yoshi games. And that's being very generous and including Yoshi's Cookie and Yoshi's Safari, which could just as easily be not counted like the Mario RPGs/such.
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Well there's also Yoshi's Crafted World now.
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mnkboy907 posted...

Well there's also Yoshi's Crafted World now.

Well, right, but I'm just going by stuff that's released so far. And Crafted will likely be countered by Yoshi being in the next NSMB, anyway. And like said, that list is being generous by counting stuff like Yoshi's Cookie/Yoshi's Safari, but counting Maker/NSLU as .5, and not counting any of the Mario RPGs.

The point is that you have to be extremely generous for Yoshi's count and not generous at all for Mario's count to even make it close.
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You didn't even name Yoshi's Story for some reason.
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Waluigi1 posted...

You didn't even name Yoshi's Story for some reason.

You're right, I missed that. So did the wiki, for some reason. Doesn't really change the point. Only in the most favorable of conditions does the Yoshi series have more games.
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super mario sunshine
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I think Yoshi is like a TV character that gets a spinoff series about their extra stories while still being in the main show. So he is really both but almost anyone from the Yoshi games is going Mario too so there really is no point in giving a Yoshi another character.
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NFUN posted...

super mario sunshine

Well there, I made a mistake on both sides!
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oh my god this is the worst argument
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Being allowed to call Yoshi and Wario "Mario characters" is the hill I have finally chosen to die on
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Guys it's almost time for a new topic
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Not until we hash out whether Yoshi is a Mario character, dammit.
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If a list with only the most core Mario games is as long as the list of every Yoshi game regardless of genre, then I rest my case further.
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Shadow the Hedgehog isn't a Sonic character, he has his own game
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He had one game.
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Yoshi has moved on from Mario, just like Mario moved on from DK

Deal with it
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New topic:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77036931
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And while I could allow for Yoshi being a Mario character, Wario isn't as far as Smash is concerned.
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Johnbobb posted...

Shadow the Hedgehog isn't a Sonic character, he has his own game

Anything to get that cringefest game out of Sonic lore is fine by me.
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If Shadow got into Smash and used machine guns and talked about taking candy from babies, I would say he is indeed a Shadow-brand character instead of a Sonic one.
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Anagram posted...

If Shadow got into Smash and used machine guns and talked about taking candy from babies, I would say he is indeed a Shadow-brand character instead of a Sonic one.

So then Captain Falcon is a Smash brand character and F-Zero has no reps?
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F-Zero is a special case since no one does anything outside of their cars. And even then, Falcon Punch was put into F-Zero canon.
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swirIdude posted...

Anything to get that cringefest game out of Sonic lore is fine by me.

yeah take away that one game and you've got some well written lore
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MawiIe posted...

swirIdude posted...

Anything to get that cringefest game out of Sonic lore is fine by me.

yeah take away that one game and you've got some well written lore

lmao
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TomNook7 posted...

MawiIe posted...

swirIdude posted...

Anything to get that cringefest game out of Sonic lore is fine by me.

yeah take away that one game and you've got some well written lore

lmao

Hey, who are you to deny the greatness that is the Sonic/Elise love story?
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Subspace Emmisary sucked.
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