Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 483: "America's Finest" Nick Aldis

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean, it was a night where Becky could have had a theoretical 3 title defenses. It would look pretty bad for the women's division if she walked out with both belts by knocking off 3 women, one being a cash-in. Also it wasn't like Becky wasn't winning the match, she lost via shenanigans thanks to Evans. And let's be honest, if you let Becky wrestle two matches and then don't have the MitB winner cash-in on her then they look like a dumb loser.

I think that was probably the best route because once they decided not to unify the titles, Becky Two Belts was gonna wear out quickly.
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People weren't really souring on Becky though.

She's still by a wide margin the most popular person on either show.

She's just not as popular as she was in January
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Eddv posted...

People weren't really souring on Becky though.

She's still by a wide margin the most popular person on either show.

She's just not as popular as she was in January

To be fair, neither is the whole product.
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TheRock1525 posted...

I mean, it was a night where Becky could have had a theoretical 3 title defenses. It would look pretty bad for the women's division if she walked out with both belts by knocking off 3 women, one being a cash-in. Also it wasn't like Becky wasn't winning the match, she lost via shenanigans thanks to Evans. And let's be honest, if you let Becky wrestle two matches and then don't have the MitB winner cash-in on her then they look like a dumb loser.

I think that was probably the best route because once they decided not to unify the titles, Becky Two Belts was gonna wear out quickly.

The babyfaciest babyface won MITB. That was their out. Bayley shouldn't want to win the title that way.
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Eddv posted...

The babyfaciest babyface won MITB. That was their out. Bayley shouldn't want to win the title that way.

And then we'd all bitch about Bayley being the next dumb Sting.

Also, she hasn't been the babyfaciest babyface since NXT.
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Yeah, people have bitched literally every time WWE has had Bayley hesitate/not do something because of being the "babyfaciest babyface"

Suggesting it would have been a good move now all of a sudden is pretty silly
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No we wouldn't.

Honestly Bayley winning the title in the manner she did is only even soooort of okay BECAUSE Charlotte was such a nefarious heel in the manner in which she got the title from Becky.

Bayley badly needed to actually win the title in a clean way to rehabilitate her after her disastrously cheap women's title win.
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This discussion is basically "we our babyfaces to do dumb things, but not too dumb things."
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Eddv posted...

No we wouldn't.

I see you're new to this topic.
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Yeah, I don't see how Bayley cutting a promo on Smackdown going "Some people might be wondering why I didn't cash in for the title when I did, and they said I was stupid for it, but I want to be able to face The Man at her best and look her in the eye when I cash it in and prove I can win this title fairly on any given night of my choosing."

It's not Bayley being dumb or hesitant. It's Bayley being respectful. Nobody has ever had a problem with her being a respectful person.
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Also congrats to Bayley for being, uh, I guess the only active women's titles grand slam champion in WWE?

NXT Women's Championship
RAW Women's Championship
Smackdown Women's Championship
Women's Tag Championship
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This such a WWE style mentality to think it doesnt matter how you win as long as you win!

A normal babyface should WANT to win clean in a fair fight. They should NOT be satisfied winning in cheap ways because shortcuts and cheating and cheap victories are for heels.

Bayley winning the title by performing her finisher on an unconscious opponent who never got her feet for their match is a hilariously awful way to kick off a babyface title run. The ONLY thing saving it is that it was comeuppance for Charlotte and her nefarious ways and may set the stage for a Bayley/Becky program wherein that is seeded as fuel for a Bayley heel turn.
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It's okay to do dumb things due to honor and whatnot if you still succeed despite others having less morals than you.

Bayley is a dumb loser because she goes "Aww yeah I want this match involving hitting people with a stick you awful person" and then goes "Oh no, I have a stick and am conflicted about using it" and gets her ass beat like a loser, not because she has honor.
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The most over woman in the division is also one of the least honorable ones. And there's been only one worthwhile "announced" cash-in in the history of the MitB and it was the second MitB winner ever. Who won via shenanigans.

MitB is not a babyface tool at all.
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But it has been used in a baby face manner exactly like we've described. RVD and Braun are the first that come to mind. I feel like Cena did it respectfully too.
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Like the whole point of the match is to put your body on the line in a ridiculously dangerous match for the sake of getting what is, for all intents and purposes, a shortcut. Didn't Bayley just literally ask for and get a title shot on Smackdown? And lost clean?
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Sounds like they shouldn't have made her lose clean on a Smackdown title match then.

Them not considering long-term booking doesn't disvalidate that she can just challenge Becky again respectfully.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

But it has been used in a baby face manner exactly like we've described. RVD and Braun are the first that come to mind. I feel like Cena did it respectfully too.

And it did nothing for Cena and Braun and barely did anything for RVD. I mean the literal best example is Bryan trying to be honorable only to say "fuck it" and cash-in on Big Show. He actually grew more as a character because of that.

Also the most memorable part of Cena's cash-in literally didn't feature him.
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It's remarkable how often the discussion in this topic seems to spin back around to my theory of the binary face-heel dynamic being overly restrictive in modern wrestling.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Sounds like they shouldn't have made her lose clean on a Smackdown title match then.

Them not considering long-term booking doesn't disvalidate that she can just challenge Becky again respectfully.

Giving your newly crowned double champ a quality win over an established performer is generally a pretty good idea.
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Now we're having a totally different conversation from it being Bayley being dumb or not for cashing in and turning it into a conversation of whether or not it's effective.

Regardless, almost every cash in is worthless honestly. How many times has a cheap cash in not helped anyone at all? Plenty of times.

Trying to argue RVD's cash in didn't mean much is wild, considering it's one of the most memorable matches ever.
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Well yes Braun probably should have won last year when he cashed in on Brock.

But yeah Bayley could have. Or they could have, as I was expecting, used it to turn her heel.

But short of pretty much exactly how she used it she shouldn't have used it to do an opportunistic cash in.
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Like Bayley stopped being the babyfaciest babyface the second she decided to blast Sasha Banks after they lost a match.

Not revenge for an earlier attack. Not her returning after Sasha injured her. Because they wrestled another team and lost.

Like Bayley is actually showing signs of growing as a character since the split from Sasha, I don't really see the point in reverting her now.
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NBIceman posted...

It's remarkable how often the discussion in this topic seems to spin back around to my theory of the binary face-heel dynamic being overly restrictive in modern wrestling.

Let's not make this out like a face Eddie Guerrero or Edge couldn't make use of the opportunistic cash in. Bayley IS a straitlaced babyface and if you want to tell the story shes slipping from that you can but they havent been and didn't.

TheRock1525 posted...

Like the whole point of the match is to put your body on the line in a ridiculously dangerous match for the sake of getting what is, for all intents and purposes, a shortcut. Didn't Bayley just literally ask for and get a title shot on Smackdown? And lost clean?

Which is WHY I thought Bayley might turn heel with it but again if they're going to TELL that story they need to TELL THAT STORY.

This isn't fucking rocket science.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Like Bayley stopped being the babyfaciest babyface the second she decided to blast Sasha Banks after they lost a match.

Not revenge for an earlier attack. Not her returning after Sasha injured her. Because they wrestled another team and lost.

Like Bayley is actually showing signs of growing as a character since the split from Sasha, I don't really see the point in reverting her now.

All of which was like a year ago at this point and was swept under the rug for the sake of setting up a 6 week run with the tag titles.
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I think the story is actually them banking on Sasha coming back, Sasha getting jealous of the success Bayley has had without her, and her finally turning heel and giving them their feud they've wanted for like two years now.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Trying to argue RVD's cash in didn't mean much is wild, considering it's one of the most memorable matches ever.

Talking long term effects here. Everyone seems to agree Bayley winning was a nice pop for her but disagree on the larger storytelling angle.

Granted RVD's issues were largely self-inflicted but still, it's very hard to think of a babyface MitB winner that worked out well.

If you wanna argue Bayley shouldn't have won it I'd probably be on board with that!
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I think the story is actually them banking on Sasha coming back, Sasha getting jealous of the success Bayley has had without her, and her finally turning heel and giving them their feud they've wanted for like two years now.

Sasha isn't coming back.
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Like I legitimately believe Bayley is champion out of spite. Vince is basically telling Sasha "see, your tag team partner lost her title too but she didn't mope around and go home. She showed up for work every day and now she's a champion again."
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You're discussing poor booking problems.

With good booking, literally any face MITB cash in could work. But as established for like years at this point, this company isn't good at booking. Hence, we can look back at hindsight and say "Well, it didn't work back then when they did it poorly, so it probably won't work now" even though if it did work back then, it would just be booked poorly now because the guy who writes the entire show is a senile mad man who probably has CTE who has no idea what he's doing.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Sasha isn't coming back.

I heard she had this week before she made her call.

TheRock1525 posted...

Like I legitimately believe Bayley is champion out of spite. Vince is basically telling Sasha "see, your tag team partner lost her title too but she didn't mope around and go home. She showed up for work every day and now she's a champion again."

And I think this was to prove "See Sasha? Literally overnight we can give people all of this, including you! We just did it to your friend who hated her position!"

Which, of course, is yet another booking issue that we don't need to get into.
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I'm discussing the nature of the MitB. It's an opportunistic concept from it's very inception. Attempts to deviate from that end poorly because its conceptually designed as a heel tool. Not unlike how the Royal Rumble is more a babyface one and its rather poorly used when heels win it.
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HashtagSEP posted...

Steiner posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Well that was enough to make me cancel the network

ahahahaha

I mean I was over Brock like 3 years ago

yes exactly it's hilarious to me that for all the other dogshit this company feeds you, it's the legitimate star they've convinced you to hate that really boils your blood
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If this last month was illustrative of anything it is how very badly they need Brock.
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I'd literally rather see Elias guitar nonsense before seeing more Lesnar and I always switch the channel over once Elias comes out

Speaking of Elias, I saw that gif of him sneaking behind Roman with his guitar like in a Looney Tunes cartoon and I feel like that should be the highlight of the show.
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MitB Brock sounds awesome. From what I gather he just randomly came out and took it though? Can't we respect rules for once.
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Also RVD was probably the best MitB Cash In of all of them how are we singling that one out as a bad one.

Well, second, behind Edge's, and probably a distant second, but yeah.
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Lopen posted...

Also RVD was probably the best MitB Cash In of all of them how are we singling that one out as a bad one.

i've not read the part where people say that but the one thing i'll say is that following that model today (like Braun) would just make you look too stupid to maximise your MitB
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It only makes you look stupid if it's out of character.

Braun should've been flipping Brock's limo and trying to cash in right there.
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Like the thing with Braun is there was no HONOR in it.

It was just "Brock isn't here and I want my match"

Go get your match, dude. Hunt him across the planet earth like it's the hardcore title in the year 2000.

If he wanted a fair match with Brock because he knew he was better and wanted people to know it beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's not dumb. But it's also out of character for a guy who's better off causing mayhem, and never what was stated. Lazy writing will make a character look stupid every time.
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Lopen posted...

Also RVD was probably the best MitB Cash In of all of them how are we singling that one out as a bad one.

Well, second, behind Edge's, and probably a distant second, but yeah.

Yeah exactly.

There are only 3 good cash-ins. The rest all blend together.

Edge, RVD and Rollins

A very very distant 4th is Del Rios.
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Eddv posted...

Lopen posted...

Also RVD was probably the best MitB Cash In of all of them how are we singling that one out as a bad one.

Well, second, behind Edge's, and probably a distant second, but yeah.

Yeah exactly.

There are only 3 good cash-ins. The rest all blend together.

Edge, RVD and Rollins

A very very distant 4th is Del Rios.

Gonna say punk cashing in on Jeff Hardy was actually my favourite
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I'd probably give distant #4 to The Miz just because that's the only one where they properly played into the champion being undeserving and it actually worked to basically make Miz an eternal upper midcard, which is like, yeah, not super high praise but given what we're dealing with.. The actual cash-in was kinda exciting too because like, Orton was dead but not SUPER dead so there was a bit of suspense in the match.

But yes those are the top 3 for sure.
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Yeah Miz's was one of my favorites
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Punk cashing on Jeff Hardy I guess was decent for a similar reason to Miz. It facilitated good character development, even if it didn't really elevate Punk.
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Speaking of, the running theory is that in another desperate plea to get people to watch their show, Mick Foley is announcing the Hardcore Title tonight.
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I can respect that there's a lot of debate around 4th place.

Del Rios is only memorable because it was part of a big hot angle.

Miz had the great intriguing match and Punk over Hardy was good story.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Speaking of, the running theory is that in another desperate plea to get people to watch their show, Mick Foley is announcing the Hardcore Title tonight.

Never mind running theory, the announced facts are mick foley is introducing a new title tonight. At the very least that's them trying to tease a hardcore title
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Steiner posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Steiner posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Well that was enough to make me cancel the network

ahahahaha

I mean I was over Brock like 3 years ago

yes exactly it's hilarious to me that for all the other dogshit this company feeds you, it's the legitimate star they've convinced you to hate that really boils your blood

Also, late reply to this, but it's not a "Brock is the only thing making me want to cancel," it's "On top of everything else that sucks, now it's just Brock in the title picture again instead of elevating anybody," since MitB atleast had a chance to make me interested in something and in fact made me super uninterested in it so it was a net loss.
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