Board 8 > Game of Thrones Season 8: Topic 5

(+) Yeah! (+)

Lets talk about how universally loved this season has been so far.
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This is the anagram of game of thrones seasons

Topic 4 sure went by fast.
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at least my boy jon snow still knows nothing, I hope they don't ruin his character by having him learn a single god damn thing
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I think a lot of people are just realizing how ruthless and shitty of a ruler Kelly C really is

she has always been this way, people are only realizing this when she's reunited with the rest of the cast and have to interact with characters they like

she literally kills her first husband by going mad with power... then she burns slavers and rapers and pillagers (then becoming the queen of those rapers and pillagers), but that's ok those people are morally bankrupt and she's seen as the good guy
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Something Im gonna need explained to me is why some people are rushing to the defense of these slavers/rapers/pillagers etc.
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GranzonEx posted...

she literally kills her first husband by going mad with power.

Um?
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GranzonEx posted...

she literally kills her first husband by going mad with power... then she burns slavers and rapers and pillagers (then becoming the queen of those rapers and pillagers), but that's ok those people are morally corrupt and she's seen as the good guy

Her first husband died because she pleaded with him to protect innocents.

She killed slavers/rapists/pillagers for the purpose of freeing slaves (innocents).

She became queen of them because she was advised to, which was then shown to be the wrong course of action, setting up the theme that Daenerys's personal decisions were better than the calculating ones given to her by advisors.

Hey, remember when she imprisoned her dragons because they killed ONE. INNOCENT. GIRL?
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TotallyNotMI posted...

GranzonEx posted...

she literally kills her first husband by going mad with power.

Um?

she gets a taste of power when she becomes Kelly C, orders a witch to heal her husband which ends up killing him

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Her first husband died because she pleaded with him to protect innocents.

She killed slavers/rapists/pillagers for the purpose of freeing slaves (innocents).

She became queen of them because she was advised to, which was then shown to be the wrong course of action, setting up the theme that Daenerys's personal decisions were better than the calculating ones given to her by advisors.

Hey, remember when she imprisoned her dragons because they killed ONE. INNOCENT. GIRL?

Drogo died not because of saving innocents, but because of stupidity and naivety (both on Dany)

she literally took a slave army for herself by killing their masters and was welcomed into other slave cities as their mother when she went around destroying those cities

then she roasts the Khals and becomes their queen, you know those people that rape and pillage
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The only person in the show who had committed more war crimes than Daenerys was Ramsey. She was 2 behind him as of April 10th. I am fairly certain that she tied or surpassed him as of this week. That's not my definition of war crimes that's per the Red Cross.

And so the cycle of the game of thrones will continue. Dany will take over as the mad Queen and the other Kingdoms will begin their war on Dany until she is taken out and someone new takes her place.

Doesn't matter who wins the game of thrones. The game never ends.
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It was naivety, but literally with the purpose of protecting innocents.

And she didn't take the slave army for herself, she literally gave them the choice. That was the entire purpose of that scene. Breaker of chains. "You are free. Anyone who wishes to leave can do so with no punishment. But if you stand with me, you can serve me as free men."

She was welcomed into other cities as the Breaker of chains.

The Dothraki thing was pretty ruthless, but it was literally the same thing she's always done - remove the head of power to acquire power without harming innocents.
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A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
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The last GoT episode I watched was Tyrion getting shipped out on a boat, and the general feel I'm getting is to not go back and finish the series.
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I could buy her pure and innocent image if she killed the slavers and took their money and hired the Golden Company and sacked KL and won

but that's not how it happened in the show
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

And she didn't take the slave army for herself, she literally gave them the choice. That was the entire purpose of that scene. Breaker of chains. "You are free. Anyone who wishes to leave can do so with no punishment. But if you stand with me, you can serve me as free men."

empty words and empty offer, the slaves only knew one way of life: obey

remember the slaves begging to go back into slavery because she fucked up their culture/tradition/economy?
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Probably a pointless question given how reckless the writers are now, but what exactly is Dany's logic when she says "I'm killing them so future generations won't have to live under a tyrant"?

Isn't she advocating for the same exact system of government that they currently have? I guess she can be a more "just" ruler, but Cersei never really oppressed her people any more than other absolute sovereigns did... right? It just seems silly unless Dany wants to establish some sort of democratic system of governance (which would make her motivations way more interesting, fwiw).
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Obellisk posted...

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Didn't work out so hot for the citizens of KL.

GranzonEx posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

And she didn't take the slave army for herself, she literally gave them the choice. That was the entire purpose of that scene. Breaker of chains. "You are free. Anyone who wishes to leave can do so with no punishment. But if you stand with me, you can serve me as free men."

empty words and empty offer, the slaves only knew one way of life: obey

remember the slaves begging to go back into slavery because she fucked up their culture/tradition/economy?

Sure, but that's not about Dany being ruthless, that's about her being naive and inexperienced.
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GranzonEx posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

And she didn't take the slave army for herself, she literally gave them the choice. That was the entire purpose of that scene. Breaker of chains. "You are free. Anyone who wishes to leave can do so with no punishment. But if you stand with me, you can serve me as free men."

empty words and empty offer, the slaves only knew one way of life: obey

remember the slaves begging to go back into slavery because she fucked up their culture/tradition/economy?

Literally reopened the fighting pits "but with no slaves"

[immediately we see slaves being forced to participate anyways]

So what I'm hearing is you guys really loved this one and hyped for the finale.
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I'm hyped for the finale as long as Dany is dead. Never liked her. Always knew it would come down to her going mad and burninating all of Westeros.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Isn't she advocating for the same exact system of government that they currently have? I guess she can be a more "just" ruler, but Cersei never really oppressed her people any more than other absolute sovereigns did... right? It just seems silly unless Dany wants to establish some sort of democratic system of governance (which would make her motivations way more interesting, fwiw).

Yes, this is the point. The only "good" ruler in the entire series is Ned and that's despite the broken system. And even he participated in a bloody rebellion to install his friend in power.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Sure, but that's not about Dany being ruthless, that's about her being naive and inexperienced.

she is a slaver in all but name
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That's contrarian to her character.
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I guess Aragorn was a giant douche after all for accepting the crown at the end of LotR instead of establishing a democratic system of government for Middle Earth.
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Aragorn didn't spend time talking about unshackling the people. He was mostly just into his orc-killing thing.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Didn't work out so hot for the citizens of KL.

I mean it sounds like it worked out very hot (Yes I came into this topic just to make that joke)
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GranzonEx posted...

empty words and empty offer, the slaves only knew one way of life: obey

remember the slaves begging to go back into slavery because she fucked up their culture/tradition/economy?

The slaves still have agency, this is a bad mischaracterization. You admit they have agency when you bring up how some (but not all) wanted to go back into servitude or reopen the fighting pits.
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The issue with Dany is that she wants to be a queen, and inherently unjust and cruel position thats only real path to being 'heroic' and seem good is through proving your own self worth and earning the admiration of your people. This is ultimately what Stannis goes through when he realizes that he can insist the law says he is king all day, but if he wants his claim to be recognized he has to prove he deserves to be king by doing his duty to save the realm from the white walkers. Dany earns admiration and power in Essos...Dany has wanted to be queen of WESTEROS, and grown up being told stories of how she and her brother are the last dragons, and when they come to Westeros they will be greeted as heroes. She finds out not only is she not the last dragon, but there is one with a better claim, and the people actually love him and do not care for her. When she ultimately realizes that she cannot earn the right to being Queen through admiration, and ALSO does not even have the legal birthright claim, she decides that the power and her dream of reclaiming the throne is more important and chooses to rule through fear and show of power. Much like how I said earlier that Jaime DOES actually care about people besides Cersei, Dany cared about being a good person too. She just cares about being Queen more than any of that, those values come second. The characters keep being faced with choices that force them to decide what is most important to them, and I don't think anyone has made a choice that was out of character so far.

redrocket posted...

I guess Aragorn was a giant douche after all for accepting the crown at the end of LotR instead of establishing a democratic system of government for Middle Earth.

Here is a quote from GRRM on this exact subject.

Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and its not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesnt ask the question: What was Aragorns tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs arent gone theyre in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?

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It just seems so illogical/sloppy for Dany to use the "but I want to free the people from tyranny" to justify her becoming their absolute monarch. She should at least just use the birthright reasoning instead of weirdly implying there will be some sort of change other than a new name on the throne.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Aragorn didn't spend time talking about unshackling the people. He was mostly just into his orc-killing thing.

And yet he still became king in the end. He could have walked away.
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This article pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole Cersei-Jaime thing:

https://www.vox.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/12/18617280/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-jaime-cersei-dead
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

GranzonEx posted...

empty words and empty offer, the slaves only knew one way of life: obey

remember the slaves begging to go back into slavery because she fucked up their culture/tradition/economy?

The slaves still have agency, this is a bad mischaracterization. You admit they have agency when you bring up how some (but not all) wanted to go back into servitude or reopen the fighting pits.

she freed those slaves (the ones who couldn't become her army), but she still had the Unsullied, which I remind you are still technically her slaves

she gave the Unsullied a choice and the only choice they ever knew was as a slave
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At least I am not mad anymore about "no elephants"
I assumed it was because of CGI problems (if Direwolves are hard CGI...) but seeing this episode...they would have been useless against a dragon
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GenesisSaga posted...

This article pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole Cersei-Jaime thing:

https://www.vox.com/game-of-thrones/2019/5/12/18617280/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-5-jaime-cersei-dead

Yeah... this is probably the most upsetting thing about the entire series for me. Jaime was so good and my favorite character... until this
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Granzon's posts make no sense

"she has literally killed people guys that makes her a monster"

if that's where you are at with no regard for intent then literally anybody that tries to do anything in this world with arms is a monster.

if you want to take that view, actually, that is fine, but it doesn't become auto mad queen justification
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If you guys didn't realize Jaime love for Cersei is bigger than anything then I don't think we watched the same show

Stop making me defend this season with those stupid complaints
They have done a lot of errors but Jaime doing everything for Cersei is not one of them
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I have no problem with the way she takes power, just that she's ruthless when she does it and the methods she used are considered cruel, like burning people alive

not to mention her power comes from taking "power" from morally bankrupt people, that doesn't suddenly make the Dothraki not rapers and pillagers, and she's still a slave owner with the Unsullied
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GranzonEx posted...

not to mention her power comes from taking "power" from morally bankrupt people, that doesn't suddenly make the Dothraki not rapers and pillagers, and she's still a slave owner with the Unsullied

They literally are not enslaved. She freed them and gave them a choice. The story plays with the "white savior" tropes by (briefly) exploring the power vacuums left behind, the total lack of respect or understanding between different cultures, the plight of the new class of freedmen, and comparing forced slavery to fuedal servitude under a monarch...but that only works if they are not actually enslaved.

Also as we saw in just this episode, and repeatedly throughout the series, ALL armies rape and pillage, even the ones led by the Starks.
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I feel like that scene with the horse pretty much confirmes that Arya is the Prince that was promised and is going to kill Dany.

The Slayer of Ice and Fire.

Which would be amazing if Dany's character arc of becoming the mad queen was well written. Too bad.
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Dany only even becomes a "mad queen" if someone DOES kill her. If she wins, and rules, history recalls these events as heroic and perhaps brutal, but necessary and just.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also as we saw in just this episode, and repeatedly throughout the series, ALL armies rape and pillage, even the ones led by the Starks.

only during sieges/wars, even Cersei warned Sansa about men wanting to rape her during Blackwater

Dothraki culture is to rape and pillage, they're savages
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I feel like that scene with the horse pretty much confirmes bullshit

Why didn't it reach meme status
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Tyrion: No, you idiots! Don't just force the girl! Throw a coin at her and she will pretend to like you! It's far more civilized that way.

So both cultures have scenarios where mass rape and pillaging is acceptable, but only one is savage?
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Nrrr posted...

Dany only even becomes a "mad queen" if someone DOES kill her. If she wins, and rules, history recalls these events as heroic and perhaps brutal, but necessary and just.

"But after we've won and there's no one left to oppose us and people are living peacefully in the world she built, do you really think they'll wring their hands over the way she built it?"

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

So both cultures have scenarios where mass rape and pillaging is acceptable, but only one is savage?

Westeros has scenarios and it's not accepted as culture, Dothraki considers it their culture
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like literally in the first season Drogo sacked a city and took slaves, and his bloodriders took women for raping and breeding

that shit doesn't happen in Westeros, or with a mercenary army, sure rape will happen but that will be the end of it after the battle is won
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"It's just Dothraki culture, guys. Don't be racist."

lmfao
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