Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 259: Raucous Caucus Robots

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also, for anyone who is confused and doesn't know Wang's MO, he is a conservative who legitimately thinks he's a liberal. He fell in hard with the GameGate crowd a while back and has been an alt-righter at heart ever since while still espousing liberal ideology on the very surface level. It's why every post he'll make is couched in the sentiment of 'Trump is bad, I agree, but not really and here's why'.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Also, for anyone who is confused and doesn't know Wang's MO, he is a conservative who legitimately thinks he's a liberal. He fell in hard with the GameGate crowd a while back and has been an alt-righter at heart ever since while still espousing liberal ideology on the very surface level. It's why every post he'll make is couched in the sentiment of 'Trump is bad, I agree, but not really and here's why'.

Yeah, I dunno how to keep going on this one

It's like playing a game of mafia and Trump keeps saying "I'm mafia" and he's like "well but he makes some good points"

Wanglicious posted...

you're saying that a subject about black welfare isn't about black welfare because trump said it/is being a braggart about it.

don't know where to go from there, the argument is literally "because trump." you're removing the positivity of the message and saying it does not matter because trump. there's no argument to be had after that.

I mean, I think continuing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt in every single situation while totally ignoring his history is a lot more insane

It's similar to how the media largely continues to credulously report on things Trump said as though they're probably true, even though he's documented to have lied over ten thousand times as president

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1, Most GG people were left. Multiple attempts to see where that group fell ideologically were made and all pointed very clearly left.

2, it's literally the same people in here from back then.

3, if I were to be "alt right" then your window of anything left is gonna be super tiny and your definition of liberal doesn't match up to any values liberalism has.

4, Trump is bad sometimes, Trump is good sometimes. There's no bad in that tweet.

Though do continue making shit up about me and assigning my pea brain ideologies it doesn't agree or align with, and keep doing that to everyone you know o big brain Brett.

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Kinglicious posted...

Most GG people were left.

lmao

GG was like the harbinger of the alt-right and I'm pretty sure there's been multiple articles/reports dissecting it as such.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean, I think continuing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt in every single situation while totally ignoring his history is a lot more insane

It's similar to how the media largely continues to credulously report on things Trump said as though they're probably true, even though he's documented to have lied over ten thousand times as president

It's not a benefit of the doubt.
It's literally what's said and just leaving it at what he said. Nobody disagrees he's bragging. Apparently there's disagreement over it being a positive message despite literally being one with the only way to tweak that as "because Trump."

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I agree with Wang in this instance. Tweet was fine. There's so much.... so so so so so so so so much that is not. Let's move on!

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I agree with Wang in this instance. Tweet was fine. There's so much.... so so so so so so so so much that is not. Let's move on!

The tweet was NOT fine, it's merely not the worst thing that Trump does on any given day; you're still contributing to normalizing his manner of self aggrandizing by making shit up

Like, he didn't give any SOURCES to back up the idea that blacks are better off now than they were under the last year of Obama's presidency, he's just saying it - and even if he did give sources, it's obvious what the real thrust of the message is ("I'm great and Obama sucks")

there is no positive message here, just some bullshit meant to puff himself up, and it's not normal or fine

xp1337 posted...

lmao

GG was like the harbinger of the alt-right and I'm pretty sure there's been multiple articles/reports dissecting it as such.

No data of any kind put it anywhere but left. Two attempts were made for data, both put it pretty squarely in that half. Networking analysis showed a very broad spectrum as well, with most major nodes being left. There's plenty of articles trying to say otherwise, sure, but no data agrees with them. Nevermind that the articles would be the ones criticized in the first place.

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I don't think a data-based approach can accurately capture the type of phenomenon that GamerGate was, but you know I'd love to see how people attempted to rationalize it as coming from the left.

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Kinglicious posted...

Most GG people were left.

Okay this is post of the topic

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Paratroopa1 posted...

The tweet was NOT fine, it's merely not the worst thing that Trump does on any given day; you're still contributing to normalizing his manner of self aggrandizing by making shit up

Like, he didn't give any SOURCES to back up the idea that blacks are better off now than they were under the last year of Obama's presidency, he's just saying it - and even if he did give sources, it's obvious what the real thrust of the message is ("I'm great and Obama sucks")

there is no positive message here, just some bullshit meant to puff himself up, and it's not normal or fine

Actually I am pretty sure his unemployment claims are based on factual data, shockingly. Now the problem with that is unemployment is a horrible stat to cite for many reasons but again I am not really normalizing anything. If you fight every small battle you lose the war!

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Trump's tweet wasn't fine. We shouldn't normalize what he's doing, because once we do then we get more of it. And that's the last thing we need.

And Gamergate was definitely conservative. A lot of them may have been self-identified liberals, but they also self-identified as caring about video game journalism and not only caring about slut shaming, and calling having women in video games who's breasts aren't at least F Cups 'Censorship' while complaining about LGBT people in video games.

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Paratroopa1 posted...

The tweet was NOT fine, it's merely not the worst thing that Trump does on any given day; you're still contributing to normalizing his manner of self aggrandizing by making shit up

Like, he didn't give any SOURCES to back up the idea that blacks are better off now than they were under the last year of Obama's presidency, he's just saying it - and even if he did give sources, it's obvious what the real thrust of the message is ("I'm great and Obama sucks")

there is no positive message here, just some bullshit meant to puff himself up, and it's not normal or fine

Like look at what you're saying. Re-read it and see if it makes sense.
"He didn't give sources here!" is followed up with "it wouldn't matter anyway!"

A literal positive message is replaced with "there's no positive message" because he's a braggart.

This means that anything he says, as long as he brags, will never be good to you. Always bad. That even if he backs it up with proper sources it wouldn't matter because he brags. You're saying, in no uncertain terms, that as long as that character exists he will never be good and will only be bad, regardless of the content. At that point there's no argument to be had, just dogmatic world view.

So what if he brags a lot. Xp's approach was by far a better one - attacking the content instead of the character. The content is what matters. The character is such a losing argument and so common with Trump that it's the basis of what people call Trump derangement syndrome. Argue and beat his position properly because if you don't you're gonna get stuck in a loop for a lot more than just the next 4 years.

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More planned impeachment trial fuckery:

https://twitter.com/neal_katyal/status/1219407989456670720

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Actually what we SHOULD do is frame things better. How about talking about how unemployment numbers don't matter when the wages of the average American have declined when adjusted for inflation the last 40 years despite a remarkable uptick in worker productivity! That's a conversation I am willing to have for sure. Like Trump's point is fairly standard right wing talking point right now which I find objectionable but it isn't like many people are talking about the right things.

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I see the stock market being used as a talking point more than unemployment numbers. The stock market is up! The economy is great! What? Did worker wages go up? No, but the stock market did, so the economy is great!


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KamikazePotato posted...

I see the stock market being used as a talking point more than unemployment numbers. The stock market is up! The economy is great! What? Did worker wages go up? No, but the stock market did, so the economy is great!

This too, yes.

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Kinglicious posted...

Like look at what you're saying. Re-read it and see if it makes sense.
"He didn't give sources here!" is followed up with "it wouldn't matter anyway!"

A literal positive message is replaced with "there's no positive message" because he's a braggart.

This means that anything he says, as long as he brags, will never be good to you. Always bad. That even if he backs it up with proper sources it wouldn't matter because he brags. You're saying, in no uncertain terms, that as long as that character exists he will never be good and will only be bad, regardless of the content. At that point there's no argument to be had, just dogmatic world view.

So what if he brags a lot. Xp's approach was by far a better one - attacking the content instead of the character. The content is what matters. The character is such a losing argument and so common with Trump that it's the basis of what people call Trump derangement syndrome. Argue and beat his position properly because if you don't you're gonna get stuck in a loop for a lot more than just the next 4 years.

What I'm saying is that there's no positive message here, there's spin. These are two different things. It isn't a positive message when it's an opinion statement whose sole and only purpose is to make yourself look good.

KamikazePotato posted...

I see the stock market being used as a talking point more than unemployment numbers. The stock market is up! The economy is great! What? Did worker wages go up? No, but the stock market did, so the economy is great!

The thing that annoys me the most about bragging about the stock market is saying that it's "the highest it's ever been." Like... no shit? That's how it's supposed to work if you're not in a recession: it's very often higher than it's ever been before.

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KamikazePotato posted...

I see the stock market being used as a talking point more than unemployment numbers. The stock market is up! The economy is great! What? Did worker wages go up? No, but the stock market did, so the economy is great!

Literally what are you talking about

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/at-a-10-year-high-wage-growth-for-american-workers-likely-to-keep-accelerating-2019-03-08

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this argument is stupid

compromise:

had trump cited a study that compared numbers to and three years ago*, choosing that timeframe would make sense and not be a braggart shot at obama. lacking that, his motivations are transparent and it bad

*one where he had the benefit of doubt as being chosen not solely because of that comparison

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Yes let's keep spreading misinformation that can be corrected via simple Google search

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I mean, you have to keep in mind that Republicans (and Trump but in this he's no different from the GOP writ-large) literally just flip-flop on what metrics mean and if they matter depending on whether it benefits them to do so.

Take the unemployment numbers at the center of this argument. Trump has, from the moment his presidency began, crowed about them constantly and made them a major part of his rhetoric. These are literally the same unemployment numbers that candidate Trump called fake and made-up when they would have been attributed to Obama. IIRC, this point was raised by a reporter to an official early in the administration when we still actually had press briefings and they just laughed and said "Well now they're real of course," or something to that effect.

It's no different with the stock market. If it's good when a Democrat is president it's "but it's not good for the FORGOTTEN PEOPLE" but now that Trump is in charge it's "RECORD HIGHS CHECK YOUR 409k [sic]"

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xp1337 posted...

Trump has, from the moment his presidency began, crowed about them constantly and made them a major part of his rhetoric. These are literally the same unemployment numbers that candidate Trump called fake and made-up when they would have been attributed to Obama. I

When was unemployment below 4% with Obama? Or are you just talking out of your ass hoping no one actually bothers to look at the data too?

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Stock market, unemployment, inflation, and wages are all the best they have ever been in the entirety of our lives (unless you were born in the 1960s). Those are the four most important economic metrics to your average citizen.

If you want to shit on Trump, go ahead, but you aren't going to win any argument that tries to claim the economy isn't thriving.

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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Literally what are you talking about

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/at-a-10-year-high-wage-growth-for-american-workers-likely-to-keep-accelerating-2019-03-08

Ironic coming from someone who made a topic about his paycheck being down
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When did I say it was under 4%? The trend line was clear but Trump and the GOP kept calling it fake and that really the "true" unemployment number was much higher.

but now that they're in charge actually that's the real stat don't worry

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xp1337 posted...

When did I say it was under 4%? The trend line was clear but Trump and the GOP kept calling it fake and that really the "true" unemployment number was much higher.

but now that they're in charge actually that's the real stat don't worry

"Literally the same figures" when unemployment is 2% lower under Trump isn't "literally" true.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Ironic coming from someone who made a topic about his paycheck being down

Tax cuts should have been deeper!

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Well, since this all arose as a discussion of the economy and we're talking about "what matters to voters" let's refer back to that WaPo/Ipsos poll of black Americans (same links as my previous post if you want them)

• 56% describe the state of the nation's economy these days negatively (Not so good/poor) against 42% who describe it positively (Excellent/Good - Excellent in particular only at 3%)

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xp1337 posted...

Take the unemployment numbers at the center of this argument. Trump has, from the moment his presidency began, crowed about them constantly and made them a major part of his rhetoric. These are literally the same unemployment numbers that candidate Trump called fake and made-up when they would have been attributed to Obama. IIRC, this point was raised by a reporter to an official early in the administration when we still actually had press briefings and they just laughed and said "Well now they're real of course," or something to that effect.

I don't think the numbers Trump is talking about are fake - but they're pretty minor changes that he has a history of exaggerating and attempting to claim credit for. Which is hard to tell anyways since we're still kinda recovering from the great recession.

But anyways, given that Trump is a racist, has made little effort to specifically uplift black Americans, and has a history of doing dumbass patronizing stunts to try appeal to what he thinks black people will like (shoutouts to A$AP Rocky), still fair to say the tweet is more dumb bullshit.

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xp1337 posted...

Well, since this all arose as a discussion of the economy and we're talking about "what matters to voters" let's refer back to that WaPo/Ipsos poll of black Americans (same links as my previous post if you want them)

* 56% describe the state of the nation's economy these days negatively (Not so good/poor) against 42% who describe it positively (Excellent/Good - Excellent in particular only at 3%)

Have a majority of black people ever answered that question positively? Genuinely curious.

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Hey heres something Trump was thinking about doing: prison reform

Hows that coming along? Asking honestly out of ignorance.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I don't think a data-based approach can accurately capture the type of phenomenon that GamerGate was, but you know I'd love to see how people attempted to rationalize it as coming from the left.

two main studies. first i'll bring up is brad glasgow's since he was more removed. up and downside is timing, his was done in late 2015/early 2016. note that GG was primarily on twitter so that's the main source to work with, of which he got 725 individuals:
http://www.gameobjective.com/2016/11/21/no-gamergate-is-not-right-wing/

some breakdown in his article here, some typical political questions were asked.
how right-wing is something that has an 82% of people believing in climate change, 2/3 are anti-death penalty, 90% are pro abortion, over 3/4 believe in healthcare being something the government should provide, etc? voting patterns are also addressed there and most went to the more liberal side.

second survey came earlier, in 2014. so this would be the more flashpoint breakdown, by allum bokhari. he was also the breitbart guy that told milo about it, and do know both instantly knew that this wasn't the breitbart or right wing audience (and going off the survey later done by brad, completely true considering non-GG readership at breitbart was single digit percentage). he got about 1500 people:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1rRMK0Jz-p_7PN7SBvQwcv-QDMChdjumssNzLZVmQLy0/viewanalytics

similar results though on the questions that overlapped.
52% disageeing that the free market can fix most social problems, over 3/4 believe wealth inequality's a major problem, etc. basically take most social issues that tend to define left and right and you'll see the left side win out usually overwhelmingly.

data nodes one... that'll take more effort to find, if you care. though i quite loved the way the pictures came out. but those two are the only two pieces of survey data regarding GG.

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Ok we are stuck in a time loop. I want off!
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

"Literally the same figures" when unemployment is 2% lower under Trump isn't "literally" true.

oh ffs i'd say you can't be this obtuse but I'm referring to the U-3 metric of unemployment.

Trump was just saying it was entirely the fake and the GOP would try to couch it in more "rational" terms like saying that the U-3 stat gave a false impression and jumped to U-6 which is naturally higher as it includes more people like discouraged workers and part-time.

Like looking at today's numbers while the U-3 is at 3.4% for December 2019, the U-6 is double that at 6.7%

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Actually what we SHOULD do is frame things better. How about talking about how unemployment numbers don't matter when the wages of the average American have declined when adjusted for inflation the last 40 years despite a remarkable uptick in worker productivity! That's a conversation I am willing to have for sure. Like Trump's point is fairly standard right wing talking point right now which I find objectionable but it isn't like many people are talking about the right things.

If inflation has been relatively flat the past few years and wages have gone up, how isn't there an increase?

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Jakyl25 posted...

Ok we are stuck in a time loop. I want off!

hey, it was asked! besides, if i'm going to be smeared, insulted, and treated like i don't know what i am, that i don't know what my beliefs are, by some asshole on the internet thinks he does, i'll annoy just fine until i'm satisfied. whether that point is until i wanna play some games, watch anime, nap, or whatever else is fine.


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xp1337 posted...

oh ffs i'd say you can't be this obtuse but I'm referring to the U-3 metric of unemployment.

Trump was just saying it was entirely the fake and the GOP would try to couch it in more "rational" terms like saying that the U-3 stat gave a false impression and jumped to U-6 which is naturally higher as it includes more people like discouraged workers and part-time.

Like looking at today's numbers while the U-3 is at 3.4% for December 2019, the U-6 is double that at 6.7%

Fair enough. I thought you were referring to the numbers themselves. My mistake.

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Wanglicious posted...

hey, it was asked! besides, if i'm going to be smeared, insulted, and treated like i don't know what i am, that i don't know what my beliefs are, by some asshole on the internet thinks he does, i'll annoy just fine until i'm satisfied. whether that point is until i wanna play some games, watch anime, nap, or whatever else is fine.

you should play factorio

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that's a... construction sim?
never been too into those. my main time sink games tend to be 4X games, meaning i'm playing a lot of Planetfall thanks to it being on game pass. intend to dump a few more hours into it.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I don't think the numbers Trump is talking about are fake - but they're pretty minor changes that he has a history of exaggerating and attempting to claim credit for. Which is hard to tell anyways since we're still kinda recovering from the great recession.

No, no, that's not what I meant.

Okay, I'll back up and explain it a bit more detail since it seems I wasn't clear enough.

Back during the campaign (and I'd say more generally beyond it but let's stick with 2015-2016) unemployment numbers under Obama were good and trending in the right direction. But rather than just go "well the data shows things are moving in the right direction, it'd be a losing argument to try and argue the economy is going poorly" Trump and the GOP chose to argue that the released unemployment and jobs number gave a false impression of the economy and that unemployment was in reality much higher under Obama than the administration was portraying.

See, the standard unemployment number that everyone uses is the U-3 statistic released by BLS. It's the official unemployment rate. But the GOP claimed it was a misrepresentation because it didn't count several classes of people. You'll recall arguments like "Yeah, the unemployment rate went down because people stopped looking for work!" Well, that's a stat that is also tracked by BLS where they included that category back in and factor it in.

The most inclusive such category that BLS releases is the U-6 unemployment metric which is U-3+Discouraged Workers+People who are employed part-time for economic reasons+some others and other adjustments. The GOP argued that this was a more representative statistic for the economy under Obama and the reason they argued such is because by definition the U-6 stat will show a higher unemployment rate since it adds all these categories back in. Trump himself would just make up numbers but the "rational/data" argument his supporters in the GOP would use tended to revolve around the U-6 number as the "true" unemployment number.

What I'm saying is that when Trump took office all that talk instantly came to a halt and he and his GOP cheerleaders have been lauding his U-3 unemployment rate as proof of his great economy.

I'm not calling the U-3 number fake. It's not. It's 3.4% right now. That's historically low. What I'm saying is that Trump and the GOP are disingenuous because they claimed the U-3 statistic gave a false representation of the economy and true unemployment was much higher than the U-3 indicated when it was Obama in office. For reference, the U-6 unemployment right now is 6.7% but you don't see Republicans claiming that's the real unemployment number anymore.

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more of a sandbox

have you ever played alpha centauri? it's old as hell but still holds up

i typoed it as "aloha centauri" which is a game that needs to be made

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and if you're wondering what i mean or why i'm taking offense, it's this:

KamikazePotato posted...

Also, for anyone who is confused and doesn't know Wang's MO, he is a conservative who legitimately thinks he's a liberal. He fell in hard with the GameGate crowd a while back and has been an alt-righter at heart ever since while still espousing liberal ideology on the very surface level. It's why every post he'll make is couched in the sentiment of 'Trump is bad, I agree, but not really and here's why'.

conservative who thinks i'm a liberal means that i don't know what conservatives are or believe in and i don't know what liberals are or believe in. so despite the fact that i fall very clearly on the left side of most issues, that my beliefs run heavily towards individualism and freedom of choice/will, and that liberalism tends to be same left/libertarian quadrant i'm in (progressives are further up in authoritarian), i somehow am in an entirely different corner with beliefs i disagree with. but no, i must be ignorant of where literally everything lies.

alt-righter at heart today means that either i'm a nazi or white supremacist at heart. it also means that i'm someone who people in this very topic series, including kp, have openly stated that should be punched and attacked for existing.

there's a hearty "fuck you" to both of those. don't assign me shit that you don't know and if you're gonna label me as a target then don't beat around the bush either.

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NFUN posted...

more of a sandbox

have you ever played alpha centauri? it's old as hell but still holds up

i typoed it as "aloha centauri" which is a game that needs to be made

yeah, a bit.
technically they tried to make a more modern version of it with Civ Beyond Earth but that ended up mostly being just Civ 5 in space.
which ain't a complaint really, i like it.

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Factorio is the ultimate balancing spinning plates game
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Jakyl25 posted...

Hey heres something Trump was thinking about doing: prison reform

Hows that coming along? Asking honestly out of ignorance.

Wasn't one of the last things Obama did as president issuing an executive order to de-privatize the prison system to the greatest extent he could (e.g telling the DOJ to quit using them)? And wasn't one of the first things Donald did rescinding that order?

Beyond that I know about as much as you on that topic but I basically wrote it off as a possibility because of that LOL

Reg posted...

Wasn't one of the last things Obama did as president issuing an executive order to de-privatize the prison system to the greatest extent he could (e.g telling the DOJ to quit using them)? And wasn't one of the first things Donald did rescinding that order?

Beyond that I know about as much as you on that topic but I basically wrote it off as a possibility because of that LOL

Yeah but then Kim Kardashian lobbied him about it
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He signed on to the First Step Act, which was bipartisan. My understanding is that it will have modest positive impact (though I forget exactly what it did).

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