Board 8 > Star Trek Mafia - Topic 7: I am not a merry man.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I have not claimed correct

I think ctes is fairly clearly town if were assuming scum doesnt have an extra kill AND an unblockable.

Also comedy option that hasnt been brought up but is extremely unlikely - scum unblockable is an extra kill so they used it on crescent, but used their regular kill on Ulti and it failed because hes BP

And actually an extra kill wouldnt make sense with Chris role at a glance? It would allow a double vote and extra kill for super early mylo?

Does that thought make sense or am I off base

I am concerned about you, Han, my dear mason vig pal. When I day 1 considered you and Chris putting on a show I wasn't really kidding. I held back because you buried him, but I don't think that's out of your game. I don't feel like most of your detective work is done in good faith while you're usually all over trying to push for information. I know because it tends to get on my nerves lol (in a good way).

Also the more jokey reason is that you haven't really been suspecting me early on like you have done literally ever other game we have played together (I have never played with scum Han before).

Ironically except the one time I was actually scum, so maybe I really am the scum lol.

I guess he could always have lied about shooting Death and is scum, but that would mean scum purposefully shot vanilla Death and Im not prepared to jump to that conclusion yet since most of what were discussing is premised on Ulti correctly saving Crescent N1.

Chaeix posted...

And actually an extra kill wouldnt make sense with Chris role at a glance? It would allow a double vote and extra kill for super early mylo?

Does that thought make sense or am I off base

Yeah someone (I think Crescent) said the same thing yesterday. I'd say it's unlikely too.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Why are you pushing him so hard

Because I'm trying to win? No shit?

Chaeix posted...

good job Han, you caught my scum slip

scum never could have guessed that I, the dude being insulted for not scanning a vanilla, would try to scan the vanilla

ace detective work

How many possible other scan options were there last night? And as you already proved, you don't give a damn for scanning claimed vanillas, so really, why would you scan BCT?

You're talking as if any and all actions Scum took were based solely on the premise that you were scanning BCT no matter what.

It's either a slip or you're not thinking critically about possibilities here.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I am concerned about you, Han, my dear mason vig pal. When I day 1 considered you and Chris putting on a show I wasn't really kidding. I held back because you buried him, but I don't think that's out of your game. I don't feel like most of your detective work is done in good faith while you're usually all over trying to push for information. I know because it tends to get on my nerves lol (in a good way).

Also the more jokey reason is that you haven't really been suspecting me early on like you have done literally ever other game we have played together (I have never played with scum Han before).

Ironically except the one time I was actually scum, so maybe I really am the scum lol.

There is no reason anybody who has seen me in a game with Lopen thinks I'm Scum for real here.

That I wasn't on your Town list at start of day is why I've been pursuing other avenues that could point to you being Scum - because you certainly aren't thinking like Town.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

There is no reason anybody who has seen me in a game with Lopen thinks I'm Scum for real here.

What kind of an argument is this

Like seriously, I actually don't understand it.

ctesjbuvf posted...

What kind of an argument is this

Like seriously, I actually don't understand it.

Ctes - smash your face into your desk hard. Enough to draw blood.

Will you do that for a mafia game?

Because if the answer is no, then it's fucking ridiculous for you to think I would.

who should I have scanned Han? give me a name of one person who I should have even remotely considered

youre saying I didnt think critically but critical thinking lands on bct as the only move

Like, there's a reason Lea, Ulti, and even Crescent weren't entertaining me - it's absolutely ridiculous to look at Chris/me from D1 and say "hurr durp sure is scum han who would agree to have Chris drive him fucking insane day 1 when it's also strategically stupid as all fuck"

wallmasterz posted...

Dumey based on this post, in a hypothetical world where youre scum, would you say if a scum buddy is in danger youd work on pushing for another option?

Really depends on the situation. I think other people will attest that I'm a fighter, and don't really just give up in any scenario. Last game in Paper Mario when Ben and Red were lynched, I ended up bussing both of them. But those were both cases with a lot more concrete evidence to them.
Sheep in this game was being lynched on reads only, no evidence, so I think if Sheep and I had both been scum, I would have tried pushing harder for a preferred lynch. This obviously isn't what transpired though.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Like, there's a reason Lea, Ulti, and even Crescent weren't entertaining me - it's absolutely ridiculous to look at Chris/me from D1 and say "hurr durp sure is scum han who would agree to have Chris drive him fucking insane day 1 when it's also strategically stupid as all fuck"

someone call the WIFOMbulance we have an emergency

ctesjbuvf posted...

Ironically except the one time I was actually scum, so maybe I really am the scum lol.

I don't like that you've made this joke twice now. I'm pretty sure we have a term for this kind of thing when scum joke about being scum usually near the start of the game.

Chaeix posted...

someone call the WIFOMbulance we have an emergency

##Vote: JC

"lol it's totally within Han's wheelhouse to, at work, take a knife and slowly peel layers of his eyeballs of in front of all of his coworkers when he could have just not engaged with a fellow scummate"

I'm done. Bye.

engaged with a fellow scummate"

now this looks like a scumslip but I cant tell who hes referring to lol

Oh he was referring to Chris, not this discussion, nvm

Chaeix posted...

engaged with a fellow scummate"

now this looks like a scumslip but I cant tell who hes referring to lol

You need to learn how quotation marks work before you start posting on the internet

HanOfTheNekos posted...

You need to learn how quotation marks work before you start posting on the internet

you need to learn to not give a shit and not make snide comments like this because nobody wins when it turns into a snarky back and forth

wait what

well let it be known that Han is currently voting the only other claimed town scanner who targeted the scum n1 kill target

this is clearly an excellent vote

han/Isquen are probably where Id be comfortable voting at the moment but honestly I feel worse about Han after this whole deal. Like really for me to be scum relies on ctes actually being the N1 scum night kill, which means that both the claimed town vig and weak scanner are scum and the game is like 7 vanillas at that point.

thats just nonsensical

I'm not saying what you're saying can't be true and that you can't be town, don't act like you aren't an established enough player that it's unreasonable to still suspect you. For all I know you could be legitimately frustrated as scum with Chris.

I think getting this frustrated that someone is suspecting you (or hell, not putting you on their certain town list) despite that interaction ridiculous to state as either alignment. In itself I always think players pointing to behavior specific reasons for why they can't be scum is super suspicious. Like I guess I'm sorry if you're being honest here, but I want to be able to voice my suspicions even if you don't think they make sense.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I'm not saying what you're saying can't be true and that you can't be town, don't act like you aren't an established enough player that it's unreasonable to still suspect you. For all I know you could be legitimately frustrated as scum with Chris.

I think getting this frustrated that someone is suspecting you (or hell, not putting you on their certain town list) despite that interaction ridiculous to state as either alignment. In itself I always think players pointing to behavior specific reasons for why they can't be scum is super suspicious. Like I guess I'm sorry if you're being honest here, but I want to be able to voice my suspicions even if you don't think they make sense.

I'm not frustrated that someone suspects me, I'm frustrated that someone suspects me because "1+1=3".

I know it's a part of these games, but I don't play them to be accused with arguments that actively avoid intellect.

Chaeix posted...

well let it be known that Han is currently voting the only other claimed town scanner who targeted the scum n1 kill target

this is clearly an excellent vote

han/Isquen are probably where Id be comfortable voting at the moment but honestly I feel worse about Han after this whole deal. Like really for me to be scum relies on ctes actually being the N1 scum night kill, which means that both the claimed town vig and weak scanner are scum and the game is like 7 vanillas at that point.

thats just nonsensical

If you're Town, you still shouldn't think I'm Scum. Even with me getting annoyed here. It's more nonsensical than Scum knowing you targeted BCT for sure no matter what

Chaeix posted...

Like really for me to be scum relies on ctes actually being the N1 scum night kill, which means that both the claimed town vig and weak scanner are scum and the game is like 7 vanillas at that point.

Explain this to me. I don't understand how you and Ctes' night actions are connected at all.

Like this suddenly became uncomfortably personal to me, I truly am sorry if you had that experience d1, but you've played mafia in forever, right, so it should not surprise you if such an interaction doesn't clear you in the eyes of anyone.

And I barely even pushed you, I voiced a few lines of concern.

UltimaterializerX posted...

##Unvote
##Vote: Han

Ive seen enough. Accusing the only protection, uncountered protection no less, of being mafia is just atrocious. There is no way you actually make that play as town.

JC didn't claim protection.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I know it's a part of these games, but I don't play them to be accused with arguments that actively avoid intellect.

And this is just needlessly insulting.

JC is not wrong about mentioning wifom. I do not want to think you would not use these arguments in bad faith but that also just means it's problematic to bring up ever.

EDumey posted...

Explain this to me. I don't understand how you and Ctes' night actions are connected at all.

N1 myself and Ulti targetted Crescent. Ctes claimed the other NK. The only logical conclusion (if Ulti is not BP, which I don't think anyone really believes at this point) is that Ulti saved Crescent. That means I, the scanner, targeted the N1 kill target, which as scum, would be completely pointless.

The only way that I could be scum then, is if the NK target was not Crescent. For Crescent to not have been the NK target means ctes was in fact likely the scum NK and not town vig. We would likely be scumbuddies.

And then if ctes and I are scumbuddies, the game has way too many goddamn vanillas.

So really, the game state dictates that I am probably not scum.

ctesjbuvf posted...

And this is just needlessly insulting.

JC is not wrong about mentioning wifom. I do not want to think you would not use these arguments in bad faith but that also just means it's problematic to bring up ever.

You can't call every defense WIFOM.
Needlessly insulting is you accusing me of self-harm.

I had a post typed up but lost it to refresh so e/e

There's a reason Lea is who I trusted to keep sanity and why she's not engaging with this all right now. It's dumb and probably all wrong and in spite of JC's knowledge of Scum's beliefs being something that SHOULD be pressed.

##Unvote: JC

Whatever I was working on in my head is out of it so I'll return to this later.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Needlessly insulting is you accusing me of self-harm.

I did not ever do this.

Chaeix posted...

N1 myself and Ulti targetted Crescent. Ctes claimed the other NK.

Like, you can't blame me for hopping on sentences like this when JC is saying, for a fact, there was a second NK. Even if it is most likely that Ctes is Town, it's still odd phrasing.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I did not ever do this.

If I'm scummates with Chris, it means I willingly endorsed and engaged with dealing with shit that I *hate*. So yes, you did say it.

I guess you also said I deserved an academy award for acting, so good and bad, sure.

Han, what are your thoughts on the game state logic that I presented - beyond the fact that I stated things from the perspective of my operating assumptions.

Like, I need you to explain why I'm scum despite the N1 actions.

Chaeix posted...

N1 myself and Ulti targetted Crescent. Ctes claimed the other NK. The only logical conclusion (if Ulti is not BP, which I don't think anyone really believes at this point) is that Ulti saved Crescent. That means I, the scanner, targeted the N1 kill target, which as scum, would be completely pointless.

The only way that I could be scum then, is if the NK target was not Crescent. For Crescent to not have been the NK target means ctes was in fact likely the scum NK and not town vig. We would likely be scumbuddies.

And then if ctes and I are scumbuddies, the game has way too many goddamn vanillas.

So really, the game state dictates that I am probably not scum.

This is dumb. If you are scum, then you are lying about your role. You didn't target Crescent because you're lying, so there's no contradiction with whoever scum targeted for night kill. Maybe YOU were the one who sent in the night kill on Crescent, and claimed weak tracker just in case someone else watched or tracked you to them.
You could easily be scum and Ctes Town Vig.

EDumey posted...

This is dumb. If you are scum, then you are lying about your role. You didn't target Crescent because you're lying, so there's no contradiction with whoever scum targeted for night kill. Maybe YOU were the one who sent in the night kill on Crescent, and claimed weak tracker just in case someone else watched or tracked you to them.
You could easily be scum and Ctes Town Vig.

If I didn't target Crescent I couldn't have known she moved.

Like the implication here is that if you were scum, you would have to be a scum scanner.

Chaeix posted...

Han, what are your thoughts on the game state logic that I presented - beyond the fact that I stated things from the perspective of my operating assumptions.

Like, I need you to explain why I'm scum despite the N1 actions.

Crescent being the N1 kill requires Ulti being Doctor and Ctes being Vig. Did you for sure target Crescent? There are possibilities where Scum would.

Truth is, JC, right now I'm a little annoyed and I'm sorry for that. But if any simple defense is called WIFOM, then everything you're saying about game state right now is just WIFOM so I shouldn't even engage.

Han, I voiced that I thought you could be scum and given what I'm playing a game here where the purpose of one faction is to lie, I want to be able to do this to any player in game regardless of how town confirmed anyone might believe they are without being insulted like this.

You can tell me why I should think otherwise of course, but accusing me of saying you would actively harm yourself is rude and also a bit against the spirit of the game.

EDumey posted...

Like the implication here is that if you were scum, you would have to be a scum scanner.

But if I was a scum scanner, I still would have to have targeted Crescent to know she moved.

So me having information on Crescent, and being scum scanner, are mutually exclusive concepts.

Chaeix posted...

If I didn't target Crescent I couldn't have known she moved.

A Watcher would know.
A psychic would know.

Like there's options.

Thing is JC, you're probably just Town. But it's fallacious to say that any action on you is based on you scanning BCT for a point of fact. That's the key point I'm what I've said.

The other key point is that Scum with redirector/bus driver and unblockable doesn't quite make sense.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Crescent being the N1 kill requires Ulti being Doctor and Ctes being Vig. Did you for sure target Crescent? There are possibilities where Scum would.

Truth is, JC, right now I'm a little annoyed and I'm sorry for that. But if any simple defense is called WIFOM, then everything you're saying about game state right now is just WIFOM so I shouldn't even engage.

my comment was less about the content of what you were saying and more that you literally brought up "scum me wouldn't do this" which is kind of the definition of wifom

and yes you're correct that most mafia is wifom

HanOfTheNekos posted...

A Watcher would know.
A psychic would know.

Like there's options.

Thing is JC, you're probably just Town. But it's fallacious to say that any action on you is based on you scanning BCT for a point of fact. That's the key point I'm what I've said.

The other key point is that Scum with redirector/bus driver and unblockable doesn't quite make sense.

so it makes sense based off of scum scanning roles that would work if crescent scanned me, but you also don't believe crescent scanned me?

which is it

and if crescent scanned me, she definitely would have countered me

ctesjbuvf posted...

Han, I voiced that I thought you could be scum and given what I'm playing a game here where the purpose of one faction is to lie, I want to be able to do this to any player in game regardless of how town confirmed anyone might believe they are without being insulted like this.

You can tell me why I should think otherwise of course, but accusing me of saying you would actively harm yourself is rude and also a bit against the spirit of the game.

It's the truth though. I hate defending myself against bad arguments and that's what Chris had for me. If I'm in a Scumchat with Chris and he does that to me, I both engage less because I know it's not a big deal and also I don't endorse it because it would mean I'm willingly diving into engagement that I hate.

But here's the response without aggression:

I am most Townish based on Chris's flip because me and Chris engaging like that can't be Scum/Scum. Ergo, you not putting me on your townlist makes me suspicious of you because it's nonsensical.

Chaeix posted...

my comment was less about the content of what you were saying and more that you literally brought up "scum me wouldn't do this" which is kind of the definition of wifom

and yes you're correct that most mafia is wifom

No, the definition of WIFOM is "I know you would think I'd do such as Scum, therefore I'd do the opposite" and then it repeats.

A defense is just a defense.

Chaeix posted...

But if I was a scum scanner, I still would have to have targeted Crescent to know she moved.

So me having information on Crescent, and being scum scanner, are mutually exclusive concepts.

The other option is that it's possible that Ulti is BP and that Scum shot him.

Or that Scum shot Ctes.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

The other option is that it's possible that Ulti is BP and that Scum shot him.

Or that Scum shot Ctes.

option a - but you yourself have admitted that you don't believe ulti is bp to the best of my recollection?

option b - i'm afraid i'm just not following here and will need to be walked through this