Board 8 > Star Trek Mafia - Topic 7: I am not a merry man.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Actually wait ignore my question about Crescent being swapped.

Because I scanned her N1 so she couldnt have been swapped.

I guess it makes it less likely the BD is every night?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I think it's more likely that he is Doctor and Scum just have a bypass

This is why the bus drive comes from a town perspective imo. Trying to save doctor. But if scum had an unblockable they obviously kill the scanner first.

Chaeix posted...

Why not?

If they have an unblockable kill, dont have an RB, and dont believe Ulti is BP, wouldnt Crescent be the obvious target, then Ulti?

I'm turning this one over.

For people to be telling the truth, we're talking about a Redirector, not a Bus Driver. Need to think about if those actions make the msot sense.

ctesjbuvf posted...

This is why the bus drive comes from a town perspective imo. Trying to save doctor. But if scum had an unblockable they obviously kill the scanner first.

My statement is basically that Scum does not have an Unblockable Kill and also an Unblockable Kill (which is what Bus Drive is)

What is the explicit difference between Redirector and Bus Driver?

ctesjbuvf posted...

This is why the bus drive comes from a town perspective imo. Trying to save doctor. But if scum had an unblockable they obviously kill the scanner first.

man in a 14-person game no chance we have a town BD and a doc.

scum with unblockable + BD and no nightly RB makes way more sense.

And thinking more on this, nightly BD with a complementary unblockable would allow scum to bypass protection literally every night so that seems even more unlikely that its anything other than a Jack of some kind.

Oh nevermind I think I logic'd it out on my own. Bus Driver targets the two players to be swapped, and any actions going their way are swapped. Redirector targets a specific player and moves just their action somewhere else? Is that right?

Bus Driver allows Scum to remove all protection or scans from a person of their choosing.
Redirector is effectively a roleblocker - move someone's action to someone else.

EDumey posted...

Oh nevermind I think I logic'd it out on my own. Bus Driver targets the two players to be swapped, and any actions going their way are swapped. Redirector targets a specific player and moves just their action somewhere else? Is that right?

Yes, but for scum its effectively the same in terms of being able to bypass protection.

Redirector may actually make more sense given the whole Crescent wasnt swapped N1 thing. I was pretty focused on the BD.

Also I think we're lynching Wall today because looking at Crescent's first post of the day, she said:

My town lean on Wall hasn't just gone, it's flipped straight to a scum read.

If she ever backs down from this certainty, then it cancels out reading it as a scan, but based on that one post, it looks like a scan.

I like that JC is basically coming to the same conclusion as Han that a scum Bus Driver doesn't make sense, which makes his claim look worse. lol.
I get that you're theory crafting Jack to explain that, but I just find the interaction humorous.

And to be clear, I am talking about it being the same in terms of bypassing protection in this game specifically, given that our protection has already claimed. Thats not an always-applies statement.

But then that brings us back to why they wouldnt just redirect Ulti, and why there was scum equity in redirecting or BDing me away from BCT

Crescent-Moon posted...

Though Wallz reply to me mitigated a lot of the bad feelings I had towards him. I feel like scum in that situation at least gets a little defensive, and he didn't react defensively at all.

Nevermind, not a scan.

So we know she didn't scan JC or Wall.

EDumey posted...

I like that JC is basically coming to the same conclusion as Han that a scum Bus Driver doesn't make sense, which makes his claim look worse. lol.
I get that you're theory crafting Jack to explain that, but I just find the interaction humorous.

I mean, there is a scum something that swapped my target. Im just trying to figure out what it is, and its taking a bit of working through. I think its pretty clear that theres no straight RB given neither Ulti or I were RBd, so its important to figure out what it is.

Chaeix posted...

But then that brings us back to why they wouldnt just redirect Ulti, and why there was scum equity in redirecting or BDing me away from BCT

The explanation is that they did redirect Ulti, and you're lying.

I think Crescent did scan JC.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I think Crescent did scan JC.

She provided a post that proves it wrong.

Which one is that?

I think T6 Post 300 heavily implies she scanned him.

It's her replying to you asking jer of how bad she thought JC looked end of d1

She says

"Bad enough that if I were cop I probably would've scanned him."

Yeah that sounds like a pretty clear statement.

There was a post she had that heavily implied she scanned him yesterday. I picked up on it live. I then asked for clarification as best I could - and she backed down from the certainty in a way that implies there wasn't a scan there.

Crescent didn't vote Sheep, but she didn't defend him enough to prevent the mislynch, so that clears Sheep from being scanned by her.

Can we remove the possibility she scanned herself? Would mean she got bus drove with her target, and JC's scan claim would prove that wrong... and Crescent would have maybe said something about that?

ctesjbuvf posted...

It's her replying to you asking jer of how bad she thought JC looked end of d1

She says

"Bad enough that if I were cop I probably would've scanned him."

Yeah, and if anybody didn't pick up on that live then y'all don't read close enough.

Let me find the post where she seems to counter that it was her scan.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Can we remove the possibility she scanned herself? Would mean she got bus drove with her target, and JC's scan claim would prove that wrong... and Crescent would have maybe said something about that?

I think if Crescent knew she was bus driven, she could have stated that without giving up her role, since we already knew she was someone that moved. I don't see any reason for her to withhold that if she had a direct contradiction to JC's claim.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/7/0/AAOJ0pAAERVS.png
It was this response. I asked her "I thought you were confident in your read on JC" and her response ended up not being "yes".

Her calling it circumstantial introduced doubt into the read.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Na, nah, this is NAI, we're just not usually both alive this long, mostly because of you getting shot.

Of course back then you were partially alive because I didn't want to have you killed, so maybe I am the scum lol.

Wait my timelines are mixed up. Mixing up yesterday and today. Nevermind. No contradiction to call out yet.

I still think she would have confirmed the existence of a driver if she knew about it, since we talked about it concerning the Death kill before.

EDumey posted...

I think if Crescent knew she was bus driven, she could have stated that without giving up her role, since we already knew she was someone that moved. I don't see any reason for her to withhold that if she had a direct contradiction to JC's claim.

There was no reason for her to hold any information back after she was revealed as going somewhere... especially as a Scanner.

It's why I was sure she was protection until she made the "If I were cop, I scanned JC" post, which then as I just posted, she did not confirm.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/7/2/AAOJ0pAAERVU.png
At the least, we can say that group of players does not include one she scanned as Scum.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

The explanation is that they did redirect Ulti, and you're lying.

Thats fair. I cant logically eliminate that possibility from your perspective but in any case its incorrect.

But again, me being scum is pretty easily countered by the fact that I scanned Crescent N1 and she was the apparent night kill target if we believe Ulti saved her.

The only way I could be scum in that situation is if Ulti and scum both targeted Crescent, then scum scanned someone else and swapped them with Crescent. Then the kill would fizzle out elsewhere and the scan would resolve on Crescent.

The big problem is that Im the only one who knows for sure that Crescent wasnt swapped N1 so you kinda have to take my word for it, but hey, its the truth.

And Han - real talk - do you really think, absent Sultan coming and claiming some kind of scanning, that Cop is the only scanner town has?

I can perhaps humor going through the rest, but it looks pretty clear to me. That she's a bit confusing about it afterwards is probably on purpose if anything.

From going through her posts from most recent until that one, I felt good about her not having scanned Sheep, MZero nor Han. I also don't think she scanned Death.

Live reactions to JC claiming to have scanned Crescent.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Yep.

But to scan me of all people last night after a vote that essentially sealed Chris' death?

That sounds like something scum does, not town. I actually thought there was a good chance I'd get shot.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/8/4/AAOJ0pAAERVg.png
Crescent-Moon posted...

And this is why it feels far more likely scum would scan me, unless JC is the one town in the game dumb enough to keep spouting arguments for me being scum that I've already answered without acknowledging I've already answered them.

Like if this isn't scum this is horrendous town play from someone who really isn't even trying.

This reads pretty clearly like she didn't scan JC.

I mean, if shes been outed as power and goes I accept this at face value, no questions that suggests knowledge which she wouldnt want to do.

I obviously dont know who she scanned but I dont think its unreasonable to think she would obfuscate her knowledge there.

Han, if I flipped town what would your scum setup be at that point and why?

She didn't scan Ulti for sure.
She didn't scan anyone Scum, or else she'd have claimed, position she was in.
Seems like she didn't scan Wall either.

I mean, yeah, the post where she says if she were Cop she would have just screams a claim. I might be overthinking it.

I just have trouble there because... not out and saying it was pretty bad play. Like, either claimed Doctor would be RB'd/dealt with in some way and she'd be shot, or she'd be RB'd/dealt with in some way and Ulti would be shot (with unblockable).

She said "my read is every claimed power is Town so far".

But like, too much obfuscation on JC if she did scan him. If she did, it's just bad play.

Chaeix posted...

Han, if I flipped town what would your scum setup be at that point and why?

Honestly, probably still Isquen. I would examine Ulti there because I'm not sure how sensibly he fits in.

Dumey I promise Ill respond later when I have a bit more time.

I was convinced crescent got a guilty scan on isquen and was trying to tell us without explicitly telling us in hopes jc was town and she could maintain some illusion of being Miller and not cop. Ill try to collect them all this evening if no one else has done it by then.

Okay, and what would your thoughts on BCT be given that it would confirm scum redirected a scan from him? Would they change or stay the same?

Chaeix posted...

Okay, and what would your thoughts on BCT be given that it would confirm scum redirected a scan from him? Would they change or stay the same?

If it's a Scum redirector, then BCT is not connected.

If it's a Bus Driver... they don't swap BCT and Ulti. Ever?

I seriously doubt she scanned anyone scum. That'd be reason to claim, which she explicitly tells us she has no reason to. She would also probably not freak out as much about being outed because she would know the whole scum team learned her identity that way.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

If it's a Scum redirector, then BCT is not connected.

If it's a Bus Driver... they don't swap BCT and Ulti. Ever?

Thats not right though. Its connected because they didnt redirect Ulti and instead used their unblockable kill on Crescent.

There are two options that are equally probable at this point - that scum didnt want BCT tracked nowhere because hes town, or scum didnt want me to scan him because hed move.

Maybe thats what you were getting at and were actually on the same page, but yeah to suggest theres no connection at all is uh, a bit of a stretch.

I think we need to look at the amount of claimed vanillas and realize there's probably at least two scum in that pool.

I would not think the bus drive tells us anything about BCT's alignment.

Chaeix posted...

There are two options that are equally probable at this point - that scum didnt want BCT tracked nowhere because hes town, or scum didnt want me to scan him because hed move.

Okay JC is Scum because he's confirming Scum knew he would "track" BCT.

Easy game.

If Bus Driver (and protecting BCT), Scum just flips BCT and Crescent. This didn't happen. So Bus Driver is false.

This means it would HAVE to be a Redirector. But a Redirector would have 0 to do with BCT... except JB is letting slip they would know BCT would be tracked.

What are you talking about, he's just saying they would not want it not that they necessarily knew it would happen

good job Han, you caught my scum slip

scum never could have guessed that I, the dude being insulted for not scanning a vanilla, would try to scan the vanilla

ace detective work

If you want to believe Ulti saved Crescent yesterday you basically have to believe JC is town.

That on top of JC most likely bring the scan.

Why are you pushing him so hard

EDumey posted...

Ulti I hate to engage in this kind of WIFOM argument, but do you really think I as scum would sit here and just let a scum buddy get lynched without aggressively pushing for another option? It's not like scum Sheep dying gives me any kind of town cred.

Dumey based on this post, in a hypothetical world where youre scum, would you say if a scum buddy is in danger youd work on pushing for another option?

One thing seemed clear before and is more obvious than ever, jc and ctes are linked for sure

ctesjbuvf posted...

If you want to believe Ulti saved Crescent yesterday you basically have to believe JC is town.

That on top of JC most likely bring the scan.

Why are you pushing him so hard

It is strange to me hes been shading me/you/Ulti instead of exploring vanillas other than Isquen

wallmasterz posted...

One thing seemed clear before and is more obvious than ever, jc and ctes are linked for sure

Because I'm defending him?