Board 8 > Tekken Mafia Topic 7 - Death by Degrees

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yoshimitsu, Town Death Stopper

Corrik7 posted...

Why would you take Lopen's role, Mzero? Doesn't seem like a good usage of your role.

No other town power has flipped. With Plum, Isquen, and Hb protecting each other, might as well expedite things by backing up the Cop. Seems logical to me.

Kirby321 posted...

No other town power has flipped. With Plum, Isquen, and Hb protecting each other, might as well expedite things by backing up the Cop. Seems logical to me.

2 of the last 3 scum are likely godfathers.

Corrik7 posted...

Yoshimitsu, Town Death Stopper

... Care to elaborate what Death Stopper does?

Kirby321 posted...

... Care to elaborate what Death Stopper does?

In a nutshell, I choose a person at night. If they are shot, I save them from death. I am told if my action was successful, but not if I actually successfully saved someone or not. Once a successful save happens, it basically is a bodyguard. I die instead of the target the next successful time.

Thus, basically, 1 use doc save, 1 use bodyguard.

Corrik7 posted...

2 of the last 3 scum are likely godfathers.

We don't necessarily know that, but if MZero pulls up a guilty scan of any kind, it could help.

There's no way scum can break through a network of Doc -> Watcher -> Bouncer -> Doc without sacrificing a dude to take the fall deliberately, anyway. So it's not like there's going to be any other townies left to back up unless G Corp really feels like sacrificing one of their own to break that cycle of immunity.

Kirby321 posted...

We don't necessarily know that, but if MZero pulls up a guilty scan of any kind, it could help.

There's no way scum can break through a network of Doc -> Watcher -> Bouncer -> Doc without sacrificing a dude to take the fall deliberately, anyway. So it's not like there's going to be any other townies left to back up unless G Corp really feels like sacrificing one of their own to break that cycle of immunity.

Why do you think I said this is possibly broken?

All their ninjas and role stopping abilities are gone.

So... lol

Question now is... is their too much protection claimed.

BP + Doctor + Death Stopper
Watcher + Cop
Backup

Hmmmm.

Corrik7 posted...

In a nutshell, I choose a person at night. If they are shot, I save them from death. I am told if my action was successful, but not if I actually successfully saved someone or not. Once a successful save happens, it basically is a bodyguard. I die instead of the target the next successful time.

Thus, basically, 1 use doc save, 1 use bodyguard.

... I have to admit, Corrik, out of all the town power roles that have claimed so far, this one seems the least believable. And yet, I think your demeanor today has been enough to carry you as a town presence.

I can see why you thought there wasn't a doctor in this game. Your role is rather quirky in the sense that there is very little odds of you being able to get both the doc save and the bodyguard save in one game.

So we've got... Doctor, Bouncer, Death Stopper, and Bulletproof. Four roles that can shut down scum kills without a strongman modifier, of which there is only one. Roleblocker counters all but one, whereas Role Thief only shuts down Doctor and Death Stopper.

... Actually, reading Role Thief's description, does it actually block non-scanning roles? Something smells fishy here.

I forgot the Bouncer. That too.

You need extra protection due to double the nightkills, but they can hit cross scum. If scum shoots themselves night 1... game might be over right there... but... I guess Town protection could accidentally save scum too.

Idk.

Would it be possible that G Corp has another roleblocker? That's the only way I could see all of this protection being possible in this setup. Otherwise, yeah, I'm a little suspicious of how much protection there is here that scum can't deal with without a roleblocker. Or in Bulletproof's case, Strongman.

Kirby321 posted...

Would it be possible that G Corp has another roleblocker? That's the only way I could see all of this protection being possible in this setup. Otherwise, yeah, I'm a little suspicious of how much protection there is here that scum can't deal with without a roleblocker. Or in Bulletproof's case, Strongman.

I feel like someone would have been roleblocked by now if so.

Okay yeah. Doctor, Death Stopper, Bouncer, BP is a LOT of ways to stop double night kills from going off, and a Backup to bring one of those back if they get lynched or shot as well? It's POSSIBLE that the game is balanced around two scum teams trying to get past a lot of protection, but it seems unlikely that all this is true.

Technically Bouncer, and the second part of Death Stopper don't actually stop the kills from happening, just redirect them in their own way. Doctor and BP are the ones that actually stop the kills from happening. Does BP exist with Full Time Doctor and One-Use Doctor in the game, alongside the two redirects? (classifying bodyguard as a self-redirect here)

Obviously I'm self-interested here, but BP seems the one that throws off the balance. This is all kind of useless role meta though. I think it's enough to say there's too much protection claimed, and I'm most likely to suspect Red as the odd one out.

I say we leave Plum, Isquen, and Dumey alone for now. Those three will resolve themselves if any of them end up dead at any point. So either we focus on the Vanillas or focus on the remaining power roles in the form of Red, MZero, and Corrik.

Kirby321 posted...

I say we leave Plum, Isquen, and Dumey alone for now. Those three will resolve themselves if any of them end up dead at any point. So either we focus on the Vanillas or focus on the remaining power roles in the form of Red, MZero, and Corrik.

I feel like we already have confirmation of me. Isquen knows where I went last night. *shrug*

EDumey posted...

Okay yeah. Doctor, Death Stopper, Bouncer, BP is a LOT of ways to stop double night kills from going off, and a Backup to bring one of those back if they get lynched or shot as well? It's POSSIBLE that the game is balanced around two scum teams trying to get past a lot of protection, but it seems unlikely that all this is true.

Technically Bouncer, and the second part of Death Stopper don't actually stop the kills from happening, just redirect them in their own way. Doctor and BP are the ones that actually stop the kills from happening. Does BP exist with Full Time Doctor and One-Use Doctor in the game, alongside the two redirects? (classifying bodyguard as a self-redirect here)

Obviously I'm self-interested here, but BP seems the one that throws off the balance. This is all kind of useless role meta though. I think it's enough to say there's too much protection claimed, and I'm most likely to suspect Red as the odd one out.

The real quirk of this setup is that Doctor and Bouncer can target each other and be completely invincible if scum doesn't have a roleblocker to shut down Bouncer or a strongman to pierce through.

Nonetheless, I agree that Red's claim is fishiest of all the protection here.

Kirby321 posted...

The real quirk of this setup is that Doctor and Bouncer can target each other and be completely invincible if scum doesn't have a roleblocker to shut down Bouncer or a strongman to pierce through.

Nonetheless, I agree that Red's claim is fishiest of all the protection here.

I highly don't believe the Bouncer can redirect kills. It's why I asked him to ask.

But that would leave just probably 1 scum action it could redirect. So... idk.

Here's the thing though. Red and Mzero claimed non-moving roles. If they are seen moving ever, they are toast.

I've been seen moving already. And, the person isn't dead, roleblocked, etc.

I guess... something we didn't maybe consider... Scum could have a godfather backup... I suppose.

In fact, everyone but me, plum, isquen, and the bouncer have claimed to not move in this game.

lol...

The bouncer needs to ask A. Does the power redirect kills and B. Does the action count as moving to the target selected.

If it doesn't count as moving, then we are down to just 3 people who claim to be able to move.

Probably important to remember that g Corp didn't expect to lose their ninja when these vanilla claims came in. And the two I think are g Corp are vanilla claims.

I've only seen specific role backups before like Backup Recruiter and Kirby's Backup Hero before, not just general "choose anything" Backups. But if there were ever a game for scum to need a little redundancy, the high protection setup we're looking at could be it.

Kirby321 posted...

The real quirk of this setup is that Doctor and Bouncer can target each other and be completely invincible if scum doesn't have a roleblocker to shut down Bouncer or a strongman to pierce through.

It also wouldn't be the first time we've had "invincible" roles that scum's only recourse was to try and lynch. Didn't Changmas have a invincible role that only activated in MYLO back in Xenoblade? That had a clear downside to it, but it still was there. The real wrench here is that Watcher can confirm my movement. So scum's only recourse would be to try and attack Plum for being a second doctor. It's not impossible, but a huge puzzle for them to get through so the game can't just be dominated by scum shooting from the hip multiple days in a row.

Corrik7 posted...

The bouncer needs to ask A. Does the power redirect kills and B. Does the action count as moving to the target selected.

If it doesn't count as moving, then we are down to just 3 people who claim to be able to move.

I did ask and got confirmation that my role redirects any action unless otherwise specified. Kills included. I didn't ask about the movement thing, but I don't see why I wouldn't be seen moving. I would expect any other redirecting role to be seen moving.

EDumey posted...

I did ask and got confirmation that my role redirects any action unless otherwise specified. Kills included. I didn't ask about the movement thing, but I don't see why I wouldn't be seen moving. I would expect any other redirecting role to be seen moving.

I'm not sure why you would be moving as you aren't actually going somewhere but redirecting someone else there.

Gotta make contact somehow! I see no problem in asking though, so I'll shoot Ctes a message.

Aight I'm going to sleep. Best recourse is to lynch a vanilla and see what happens at night with everything claimed here. I have doubts on some people.

So our vanilla roster is:

Kirby
Death
Lea
IGCD
Abacus

I could be convinced on anyone here, especially Abacus who I completely forgot about until I looked at the player list specifically to make sure I didn't forget any vanillas >_>

I'll sheep IGCD. Consider his vote doubled /s

Kirby I could understand if you didn't bother parsing through all my notes, but I find it slightly concerning that you didn't even bother to acknowledge my vote. Any thoughts at all on that?

If you'd like a more specific thing to respond to, I'd be curious in hearing you explain why you thought 6 Vanillas was "too many" in 17 before knowing more about the setup being two scum teams. You put forth an argument you felt pretty strongly on about Peaf being the first to claim Vanilla there, even though I'd consider you to be an early Vanilla claim as well.

EDumey posted...

Kirby I could understand if you didn't bother parsing through all my notes, but I find it slightly concerning that you didn't even bother to acknowledge my vote. Any thoughts at all on that?

If you'd like a more specific thing to respond to, I'd be curious in hearing you explain why you thought 6 Vanillas was "too many" in 17 before knowing more about the setup being two scum teams. You put forth an argument you felt pretty strongly on about Peaf being the first to claim Vanilla there, even though I'd consider you to be an early Vanilla claim as well.

Oh, I read the entire thing. But given that everyone and their mother thinks I'm scum this game, I find it more useful to prove myself with scum hunting and furthering discussion than arguing against every point people have raised against me. Unless there's a blatant misunderstanding, but I don't think there was anything you necessarily misunderstood from me, as far as I remember at least. The circumstances just make me looky shady; I get that. Can't really do much but navigate around getting dealt a bad hand, but I am town.

If I'm being quite honest, once Lopen revealed his scan got stolen, I was expecting at least one other information/scanning role, and then some other, weaker roles, given that roleblocker flipped and a role thief was confirmed (and at the time I thought they belonged to the same faction, too). I couldn't have been further from the truth with how today has panned out in terms of claims, so perhaps I called it a bit too soon with thinking the number of vanillas in this setup was too much. But I mean... was I wrong? Two of the claimed Vanillas, Wallz and Peaf, flipped scum. Vanilla is always a staple scum fake claim, so I was a little on edge when plenty of people were claiming Vanilla in succession, and so eagerly, too. I suppose you could say it was my paranoia talking when I made that remark, really.

Kirby321 posted...

t. Can't really do much but navigate around getting dealt a bad hand, but I am town.

How are you crying about being dealt a bad hand? No one is calling you scum for anything but your own actions.

Sweet the double vote has become the double voter. Hey Corrik, you want a triple vote? It can be applied anywhere except myself or Kirby.

IGCD I hope for your own sake that you realize I'm joking about sheeping you

Corrik7 posted...

Here's the thing though. Red and Mzero claimed non-moving roles. If they are seen moving ever, they are toast.

I've been seen moving already. And, the person isn't dead, roleblocked, etc.

What? Once I inherit someone's powers I would be seen moving, I would assume.

EDumey posted...

I've only seen specific role backups before like Backup Recruiter and Kirby's Backup Hero before, not just general "choose anything" Backups. But if there were ever a game for scum to need a little redundancy, the high protection setup we're looking at could be it.

There was actually a universal backup in the first game I played here, Luigi in Ulti's SSBM mafia. I just checked and you were in the game so you must be scum for lying /s

Although he just got the first town power that flipped

I do think it's in our best interests to lynch G Corp so that they can't kamikaze into Plum, who is at the core of all our guaranteed victory strats.

Since Death is likely part of the Zaibatsu, I'm open to lynching Lea.

##Unvote
##Vote: Lea

Kirby321 posted...

IGCD I hope for your own sake that you realize I'm joking about sheeping you

Your loss.

MZero posted...

What? Once I inherit someone's powers I would be seen moving, I would assume.

That's 2 night phases away and you really have no reason to choose cop.

Hrm
Of these powers Mzero's is the one thats easiest to fake. But thats probably a concern for later
Kirby continues to confound me.
To use the forbidden phrase: if I was Mishima I would not have selected Wallz out of all players to vote at the end of day2.
I still dont trust IGCD, but he does not strike me as players acting as if he was the last part of a team. But nothing says to me he cant be Gcorp.

Corrik7 posted...

That's 2 night phases away and you really have no reason to choose cop.

I can act the same night I take the powers

MZero posted...

I can act the same night I take the powers

I see.

Huh

Backup and doctor 2 I have a hard time believing also exist

Hmm

Kirby321 posted...

Nonetheless, I agree that Red's claim is fishiest of all the protection here.

Yes, the role that targets literally nothing definitely the fishiest. Definitely not the fact that corrik's and mzeros role seem to clash(how do you backup a role that changes?).

Isquen really needed to not hold his info for another night. Going to be very limited on time to react to something that should have been out long ago

While I soft-agree with extra protection, I'm finding the sheer amount of claims implausible. More likely one of the extra protection claims is telling a half truth and is a hider or something, while another one or two is flat-out BS. This casts some doubt on Dumey in particular given how outlandish the ability is as written, but I'd still much rather pursue the unclaimed avenue at this point and get Abacus to contribute 'cuz seriously the host has written more posts than you and the day one Internet-free excuse is donezo.

Also potential backup watcher in a game that potentially has an invincible town scan setup and as i would wager only 1 strongman shot.

So many things that dont reasonably coexist.