Current Events > Why did Tales ever kill the world map?

(+) Yeah! (+)

It can't be more resource-efficient to make all of these empty connecting areas with zero identity of their own, right? The death of the world map has also been the death of remotely memorable design for regular areas and even towns.

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You mean the type of world map with a wonky scale and different character models? I don't miss them.

creativerealms posted...

You mean the type of world map with a wonky scale and different character models? I don't miss them.

Lol that's so mean why do you say that?

World maps are more nostalgic than anything. Not really a quality defining feature.

I'm playing Tales of Vesperia right now. One thing I've noticed 40 hours in after getting the obligatory "RPG airship" is that half the world is empty with no reason to explore it. There are islands all over the place with nothing but some monsters and maybe a search point. Probably 95% of the gameplay takes place in zones like dungeons/towns so it makes sense that Bandai/Namco went in that direction. Vesperia is the newest game in the series Ive played so I don't know when they made the change.

world map >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no world map

Probably just because they never did anything with them anyway.

Some games do. Like Pokemon RBY, where the overworld sections were pretty much dungeons that you come out the other side of.

I guess as more time passes I miss the world map less, but I still like to be able to explore in some way. Didn't Berseria have a world map? Or was that just a bunch of connected areas? I definitely know they still had some open fields that you could explore and such.

World maps have always been empty and dumb no matter the big series

There may be some obscure indies out there that tried to rectify that but nobody cares about them

The open zones are better imo, Xillia made the right decision. It's what world maps would have been anyway if they could have back then.

I'd much rather have a world map than an unnecessary open world where you're just running around an empty world map anyway, but it takes longer.

TMOG posted...

I'd much rather have a world map than an unnecessary open world where you're just running around an empty world map anyway, but it takes longer.

Yeah we traded a world map for open world, pretty shit. The point of vesperia's world map is that you cross the zones, find rare monster variants, secret villages, the gambling poker high school zone, stuff like that.

TMOG posted...

I'd much rather have a world map than an unnecessary open world where you're just running around an empty world map anyway, but it takes longer.

I'm convinced that jrpg fans never really figured out how to translate the things they loved on the super Nintendo into the modern era. The world map is a perfect example of that. Some of the most critically acclaimed final fantasies, like 10, didn't have one. Then you have 16 coming out and everyone complains that even though you have these huge zones to run across that it doesn't count as having a world map because everything's to scale. So then 7 rebirth comes out and the zones are even bigger and now it really does feel like you're traversing the whole world and people are complaining that it's too big and they want something smaller. I don't think people really know what they want.

kelemvor posted...

I'm playing Tales of Vesperia right now. One thing I've noticed 40 hours in after getting the obligatory "RPG airship" is that half the world is empty with no reason to explore it. There are islands all over the place with nothing but some monsters and maybe a search point. Probably 95% of the gameplay takes place in zones like dungeons/towns so it makes sense that Bandai/Namco went in that direction. Vesperia is the newest game in the series Ive played so I don't know when they made the change.

Yeah as much as I love Vesperia it has an entire sprawling continent with nothing in it. Kinda weird when compared to previous Tales games.

I'm gonna sound like an old man yelling at clouds, but I like the direction of games lile Abyss, Symphonia, even Vesperia (I didn't like that game as much as others did). Graces F was really good imo. But I haven't been a fan of the more modern games. Thing is, I don't think they're necessarily worse -- just a move away from my preferences.

AirFresh posted...

The open zones are better imo, Xillia made the right decision. It's what world maps would have been anyway if they could have back then.

I've always enjoyed learning a world's geography, and Tales has always put a fair amount of secrets into the world map. There are plenty of sidequests and areas you will outright never see if you don't explore the world map, and it doesn't even require god knows how many hours making 12 empty connecting areas.

s0nicfan posted...

I'm convinced that jrpg fans never really figured out how to translate the things they loved on the super Nintendo into the modern era. The world map is a perfect example of that. Some of the most critically acclaimed final fantasies, like 10, didn't have one. Then you have 16 coming out and everyone complains that even though you have these huge zones to run across that it doesn't count as having a world map because everything's to scale. So then 7 rebirth comes out and the zones are even bigger and now it really does feel like you're traversing the whole world and people are complaining that it's too big and they want something smaller. I don't think people really know what they want.

I really like Rebirth's since there's a lot of stuff to do. I've seen people say it's repetitive but I like what they did. 16's was overall meh, imo.

Tales has always had kind of gross world maps. I mean, Tales hardly has real effort put into it.

FF and DQ had great ones. Especially starting for, the ps1 era. Ff9 had a beautiful one with a minigame attached to it, lots of secret areas, friendly monsters to find, and that music.

FF7 and 8 had a bunch of well hidden optional areas too. I never used a guide for 8 and I still havent found everything in that game.

Holy_Cloud105 posted...

I really like Rebirth's since there's a lot of stuff to do. I've seen people say it's repetitive but I like what they did. 16's was overall meh, imo.

16 had nothing to do for the entire game though. Like, even the sidequests get recommended to skip by fans. Everything outside of the main story beats are really poor

_____Cait posted...

16 had nothing to do for the entire game though. Like, even the sidequests get recommended to skip by fans. Everything outside of the main story beats are really poor

Which is a shame because the side quests in the second half are great and it made 16s world the most dynamic and lived in out of any non-mmo final fantasy. It's just that the first half has terrible ones.

_____Cait posted...

16 had nothing to do for the entire game though. Like, even the sidequests get recommended to skip by fans. Everything outside of the main story beats are really poor

Man I had such high hopes for 16 due to it being made by some different folks than nomura

Turned out that those folks missed but then nomura hit

Smackems posted...

World maps have always been empty and dumb no matter the big series

There may be some obscure indies out there that tried to rectify that but nobody cares about them

If you actually use your world map in a meaningful way it makes sense. Take a look at FF Type-0 for a somewhat modern game that has an actually interesting world map.

s0nicfan posted...

I'm convinced that jrpg fans never really figured out how to translate the things they loved on the super Nintendo into the modern era. The world map is a perfect example of that. Some of the most critically acclaimed final fantasies, like 10, didn't have one. Then you have 16 coming out and everyone complains that even though you have these huge zones to run across that it doesn't count as having a world map because everything's to scale. So then 7 rebirth comes out and the zones are even bigger and now it really does feel like you're traversing the whole world and people are complaining that it's too big and they want something smaller. I don't think people really know what they want.

I'd say that Rebirth does the "world map" really well. Big open zones with activities to do and things to discover. The "ubisoftification" bothers people of course, but I don't mind it. At the very least it's a step in the right direction.

Wtf Vesperia has the best world map tales them.

It's colorful and vibrant, doesn't take long to get anywhere, enemies appearance is telegraphed, and there is at least some( small) use of every region

Smackems posted...

Man I had such high hopes for 16 due to it being made by some different folks than nomura

Turned out that those folks missed but then nomura hit

Yoshi-P is not very good. He worked out with 14 because it's an MMO and he has forever to plan things. However, a lot of changes to 14 gameplay wise aren't so great like forcing every single class to work on a 2 minute cycle and making them all feel pretty much the same.

If you read interviews with games Nomura directs he's the one telling people to stop their crazier ideas or things that happen with delays and such are generally decided by people higher up than him.

because the new expectation for a world map is a full open world

Garioshi posted...

It can't be more resource-efficient to make all of these empty connecting areas with zero identity of their own, right? The death of the world map has also been the death of remotely memorable design for regular areas and even towns.

That has nothing to do with the world map. I'd say tales of games going with a fully controllable 3D camera from xillia 1+2+zestiria+berseria is the reason you no longer see those towns and dungeons with those well-done designs and artistic shots when you walk around, like tales of abyss chesedonia for example. Tales of graces f didn't have a actual world map yet that game also had some decent looking towns and dungeons.

Bandai-namco does give the tales of series enough of a budget for full 3D areas to look as nice if they were to have a static camera angles to hide places they can slack on, lol.

I do think they at least did a better job with berseria's areas in comparison to the xillias and zestiria.

dragon quest XI's world is so lame and a lot of it has to do with moving away from a world map

Was Dragon Quest 8's World Map that good? Sure there was a hidden treasure here or there and I honestly didn't even like 8 that much :/ but I felt like XI was miles better than VIII in basically every way. Maybe I actually did out grow world maps. Stuff like Legend of Dragoon or some PS1 rpgs that did away with world maps I was more grumpier about, but by later Ps2 era or PS3 era I don't think I missed them anymore.

Kamil posted...

Was Dragon Quest 8's World Map that good? Sure there was a hidden treasure here or there and I honestly didn't even like 8 that much :/ but I felt like XI was miles better than VIII in basically every way. Maybe I actually did out grow world maps. Stuff like Legend of Dragoon or some PS1 rpgs that did away with world maps I was more grumpier about, but by later Ps2 era or PS3 era I don't think I missed them anymore.

Don't get me wrong I did used to absolutely love those world maps that would have their music change when something important went down in the story. (Tales of phantasia's acts, wild arms 2's changing themes, my absolute favorite breath of fire 3's time-skip world map theme, etc), but at the same time I have played enough jrpgs that have showed you can still have just as much exploration, side-quests and so on even without it. (Tales of graces F).

I don't need world maps to return so much as I wish these companies give their jrpgs more of a budget to create those sort of old-school jrpg dungeons that had interesting puzzles and designs. No straight corridor dungeons basically.