Current Events > If Biden loses the election, he has nobody to blame but himself

(+) Yeah! (+)

The other 500 response topic wasn't enough, we had to start another one?

Garioshi posted...

Most people that aren't going to vote for Biden over Israel think that both candidates are beyond the pale and not worthy of their vote, not that they're equally bad.

If they're not equally bad, then one of the choices is causing more harm. If one of the choices is causing more harm, then that's harm that could've been prevented. Not voting when they view one as worse means they're willing to look at the victim of a tragedy they could've prevented and say, "Well there's just so much bad in the world that I thought one more incident was no difference." Viewing those victims as people and not faceless statistics demands that you do all in your power to help those that you can.

I guess Biden was the last elected president of the United States. Here comes trump the dictator and his regime. Biff timeline.

legendary_zell posted...

No one is saying that Trump would be better
No one is saying to vote for Trump
No one is saying that they're equivalent

If Biden loses the election, he has nobody to blame but himself

How does Biden LOSE the ELECTION ?

creativerealms posted...

To me this is about pragmatism, this a about who will cause the less damage to America and the rest of the world. Of two terrible choices one is far less horrible.

This is the thing that no one really wants to talk about with the whole situation. Gaza is not the only issue affected by the outcome of this election. The last time Trump was in office, he shoved enough justices into the scotus that Roe v Wade got overturned. You can guarantee there's more rights on the checklist that they're eagerly waiting to take away.

Like, 100% people should be speaking out about what's going on in Palestine. But people talking about staying home in November are just showing that they don't give a shit about any of the other issues

C_Pain posted...

Nah, their job is to participate in government.

They don't get to participate in government if they don't get the votes.

WingsOfGood posted...

did he not earn the votes by doing everything he did and having as in that image just 2 books on the scale vs. the opposition which literally wants to make himself king?

Voters are telling him he should stop supporting genocide. He should try listening to voters to get their votes.

legendary_zell posted...

No one is saying that Trump would be better
No one is saying to vote for Trump
No one is saying that they're equivalent

For some reason you left out people advocating for not voting or voting 3rd party.

Shadow_Don posted...

For some reason you left out people advocating for not voting or voting 3rd party.

Now that Kennedy is getting on the ballot in some states, it makes the election even more interesting...

legendary_zell posted...

People vote because they think something good might happen, not that they're locked into terrible things and are trying to show they're "mature" by voting for a lighter shade of black.

What good is going to happen by voting for Trump?

WingsOfGood posted...

If Biden loses the election, he has nobody to blame but himself

How does Biden LOSE the ELECTION ?

How people feel about Biden is not decided independently of his actions. In fact, I'd say his actions have a lot to do with it. His actions are currently making people feel like they can't support him.

You can lose an election by not having enough votes for yourself or the other candidate getting more than you anticipated. I don't think the second one will happen this time, but it's possible to lose not through young people, Muslims, Arabs, leftists, etc voting FOR Trump, but by them being repulsed away from pulling the lever for Biden. By Biden's own actions. It simply takes a few thousand in Michigan, Pennsylvania, who have Palestinian friends that lost family or who read an article about Biden sending the bombs used to blow up aid workers.

There is a movement by the Squad and progressive wing to reject AIPAC as it goes extremist. This is dividing the 'big tent' of the DNC.
https://actionnetwork.org/forms/reject-aipac/

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/progressive-groups-launch-reject-aipac-effort-democratic-divides/story?id=107983585

A coalition of nearly two-dozen progressive groups on Monday launched a seven-figure effort to defend progressive Democrats in Congress who have criticized both Israel's military offensive in Gaza and continued U.S. support for Israel -- marking a major new development in the intraparty battle over support for Israel in the Democratic Party.
The "Reject AIPAC" bloc, which includes Justice Democrats, Our Revolution, the Sunrise Movement and the IfNotNow Movement, plans to rally voters as part of a "electoral defense campaign" to support Democrats who have been criticized by the pro-Israel American Israel Public Affairs Committee.
Our Revolution, the political organization first launched by Sen. Bernie Sanders in 2016, separately joined the effort to encourage Democratic voters to choose "uncommitted" in the Michigan primary to pressure President Joe Biden to change his administration's policy toward Israel and Gaza.
The anti-AIPAC coalition will also organize demonstrations calling for a cease-fire in Gaza and for lawmakers to impose new conditions on U.S. military support for Israel as Israel targets Hamas fighters -- while encouraging lawmakers to sign a pledge to not take campaign contributions from AIPAC.
The latter group has deep ties in Washington, across both sides of the aisle, and regularly endorses both pro-Israel Republicans and Democrats every election cycle.
United Democracy Project, the organization's super PAC, has received millions of dollars from Democratic megadonors, such as Haim Saban, as well as Republicans donors including hedge fund billionaire Paul Singer and Home Depot founder Bernie Marcus, according to Open Secrets.
In a statement to ABC News, the anti-AIPAC coalition accused AIPAC of working to "silence growing dissent in Congress" over Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza, "even as Democratic voters overwhelmingly support a ceasefire and oppose sending more blank checks to the Israeli military."
Already, AIPAC has endorsed Missouri Democratic candidate Wesley Bell and New York Democratic candidate George Latimer, who have launched primary campaigns against progressive "Squad" member Reps. Cori Bush, of Missouri, and New York's Jamaal Bowman, who have been vocal in pushing back on Israel's campaign in Gaza.
The group spent tens of millions of dollars in Democratic primaries in the 2022 midterm elections and supported the successful campaign of Rep. Haley Stevens, D-Mich., when she faced fellow Democratic Rep. Andy Levin, a progressive who had voiced criticism of Israel.
AIPAC, and Democratic Majority for Israel, another pro-Israel super PAC, have been among the most prolific outside spending groups in recent election cycles.
United Democracy Project (UPD) has already raised $45 million so far this election cycle, more than $26 million of that pouring in after October, disclosure filings show. That's a big jump from what the group raised during the last election cycle, when they brought in just under $35 million throughout the two-year period.
The Democratic Majority for Israel (DMFI)'s super PAC reported raising a relatively smaller $3.5 million so far this cycle.

Both groups have devoted much of their resources to a House race in California's 47th District, with UPD spending more than $4.6 million unsuccessfully opposing Democratic California state Sen. Dave Min, who will be facing Republican counterpart Scott Baugh, and DMFI's political action committee spent more then $100,000 in the race opposing Min and supporting his Democratic primary rival.
AIPAC has been clear that it makes political decisions on one criteria: candidates' "position on strengthening the U.S.-Israel relationship," a spokesperson told ABC news. "We believe it is entirely consistent with progressive values to stand with the Jewish state.
"Our political action committee supports nearly half of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, Black Caucus and Hispanic Caucus. We are the largest PAC contributor to Democratic candidates," the spokesperson said.
According to a February poll from Quinnipiac University, 48% of registered voters slightly oppose sending more military aid to Israel, while 44% approve.
Roughly 53% of Democrats oppose sending more aid to Israel, while 38 approve of it. Among independents, 55% oppose more aid and 38 approve; roughly 63% of Republican responded supported more aid, and 32 percent opposed it, according to the poll.
More than 30,000 people have been killed in Gaza the last five months of the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which was sparked by Hamas' Oct. 7 terror attack, according to the Hamas-controlled health ministry.
Hundreds of thousands of Gazans in the territory are on the brink of famine, the U.N. has said.
Israeli officials insist the military takes steps to curb civilian casualties, despite the death toll, and they deny accusations that Israel isn't letting enough aid into Gaza, blaming U.N. and its partner agencies for creating logistical challenges -- which the organization disputes.

bluezero posted...

What good is going to happen by voting for Trump?

Nothing, and anyone who advocates for that should be summarily disregarded. Luckily, I haven't seen anyone do that here. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about Biden losing votes, not Trump gaining them. The people pissed about Biden over Palestine are not going to vote for Trump. That's a strawman argument that hides the true danger here.

Gwynevere posted...

This is the thing that no one really wants to talk about with the whole situation. Gaza is not the only issue affected by the outcome of this election. The last time Trump was in office, he shoved enough justices into the scotus that Roe v Wade got overturned. You can guarantee there's more rights on the checklist that they're eagerly waiting to take away.

Like, 100% people should be speaking out about what's going on in Palestine. But people talking about staying home in November are just showing that they don't give a shit about any of the other issues

Yeah, people always just fall back on republicans being shit, but can never actually answer that.

legendary_zell posted...

Nothing, and anyone who advocates for that should be summarily disregarded. Luckily, I haven't seen anyone do that here. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about Biden losing votes, not Trump gaining them. The people pissed about Biden over Palestine are not going to vote for Trump. That's a strawman argument that hides the true danger here.

Not voting Biden is Trump gaining votes or Biden wouldn't lose the election.

Smashingpmkns posted...

Protesting and showing support for Palestinians, making those crowds larger, is absolutely doing something.

You're saying a lot of shit that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said so I'm just gonna disregard it lmao

What you quoted was definitely talking about those who decide to not vote or vote 3rd party. In fact that's what this topic is about. It's not about simply protesting.

Heineken14 posted...

Yeah, people always just fall back on republicans being shit, but can never actually answer that.

Have you ever really had a conversation with someone who feels that way? Are you encountering people who are mad about Palestine and don't care about abortion rights, healthcare, policing, education, etc? Or are you just imagining that's what they think based on them saying they can't bring themselves to vote for Biden?

I don't think that's what's actually happening here. It's not that they don't care. They're heartbroken. Blackpilled. They weigh genocide differently than the people here. To them, it's not a buzzword, a charged accusation, it's a real thing that's happening and that they're being asked to ignore and vote FOR. They want another option, but they're being told it's childish to even ask for a non-genocidal option. They recognize that Trump will be even worse. That doesn't help things at all. It makes things worse. It's a natural reaction when faced with a situation that hopeless and anti-democratic to just check out.

That's what has to be confronted. The only options are to get Biden to change his stance or to simply hope enough people support Israel, don't support Israel but don't think a genocide is happening, or think a genocide is happening and can vote in favor of the guy facilitating it because they think Trump will be worse. That's shaky shaky shaky ice, which is something y'all never seem to acknowledge yourselves.

legendary_zell posted...

Nothing, and anyone who advocates for that should be summarily disregarded. Luckily, I haven't seen anyone do that here. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about Biden losing votes, not Trump gaining them. The people pissed about Biden over Palestine are not going to vote for Trump. That's a strawman argument that hides the true danger here.

Moot point if their actions still aid Trump, which is the actual true danger here.

There are people here who proudly advocate for people to either stay home or vote 3rd party. That or justify the actions as a great thing to do. Which does help Trump, which consequently has the opposite affect of whatever support they had to for Muslims and Palestinians abroad and even worse in the US.

legendary_zell posted...

Have you ever really had a conversation with someone who feels that way? Are you encountering people who are mad about Palestine and don't care about abortion rights, healthcare, policing, education, etc? Or are you just imagining that's what they think based on them saying they can't bring themselves to vote for Biden?

Honestly yeah I feel like I encounter these people all the time.

Like the guy in the other topic who passionately advocated for voting third party over Gaza and when asked who would be an adequate candidate he literally didn't know a single candidate who was even running.

Just completely fucking clueless on the issues.

When I vote, I try to see who will do less harm.

WingsOfGood posted...

Not voting Biden is Trump gaining votes or Biden wouldn't lose the election.

No, those are conceptually distinct ideas. Biden getting 75Mil votes while Trump gets 74 Mil and Biden getting 72 Mil while Trump Gets 74 Mil have different effects even though Trump got the same number of votes. Trump did not gain, Biden lost. That's what we're running the risk of here. And it's not even that straightforward since we have an Electoral College system. It only takes a few less votes in a few key states to flip the outcome.

legendary_zell posted...

No one is saying that Trump would be better
No one is saying to vote for Trump
No one is saying that they're equivalent

What a substantial number of people are saying is that Biden's actions are sickening and unacceptable, no matter what the other guy did or did not do. You wanna talk about reality? Well the reality is that voting is an affirmative act and one that people tend not to do if they feel disgusted by the very thought of it. And genocide facilitation tends to make people feel that way.

Another key element of reality is that Democrats win when the President is someone to vote FOR, and they most often lose when it's considered crap vs crap. The administration's current policy is walking directly into that. It's what happened in 2000, what happened in 2004, and what happened in 2016.

You're presenting it as "adults" vs "petulant children" but hold your nose and vote for the genocider is a losing stance. You're only ever going to squeak by with that and then you'll wonder why you don't have the power to do anything useful. If you don't lose outright. You take pride in holding your nose, but for others, that's everything they hate about politics. You are a very small group of people in how you view politics. You think accepting perpetual complicity in horror is a sign of maturity, others see it as...horror.

You are very lucky people don't actually accept the same assumptions you do, because if they did, Republicans would never lose. People vote because they think something good might happen, not that they're locked into terrible things and are trying to show they're "mature" by voting for a lighter shade of black.

I totally get people not liking what Biden is doing right now, I'm among those people. I've absolutely seen on this very board try to cause discord by suggesting we should withhold our vote (Which only benefits Trump), to vote for a magical third party (Which only benefits Trump), or the they're willing to risk a Trump presidency to show Biden why he's wrong.

Of course there are non trolls who also just hate the senseless murder.

I get it. I really do. Politics are extra fucked right now. People are so gung-ho because if Trump wins, there won't be any elections to worry about. Because that's the end of democracy. If 1/6 never happened, if project 2025 wasn't a thing, if we weren't up against someone who literally reminds Holocaust survivors of Hitler, there would probably be a lot less pushback.

We're in panic mode, and Biden isn't helping. But it's not "holding your nose" for some people, because some people will absolutely not survive a Trump revenge tour.

I want Biden to not support genocide. If he loses to Trump though, there is going to be even more genocide. Promised and guaranteed.

legendary_zell posted...

No, those are conceptually distinct ideas. Biden getting 75Mil votes while Trump gets 74 Mil and Biden getting 72 Mil while Trump Gets 74 Mil have different effects even though Trump got the same number of votes. Trump did not gain, Biden lost. That's what we're running the risk of here. And it's not even that straightforward since we have an Electoral College system. It only takes a few less votes in a few key states to flip the outcome.

Let's say you have four voters, two are conservative, two are liberal. One of the liberal voters votes for Stein, while the other one vote for Biden. Both conservatives vote for Trump.

Congrats, Trump won.

Not to mention a sitting president rarely gains total votes when running for re-election...

Shadow_Don posted...

Honestly yeah I feel like I encounter these people all the time.

Like the guy in the other topic who passionately advocated for voting third party over Gaza and when asked who would be an adequate candidate he literally didn't know a single candidate who was even running.

Just completely fucking clueless on the issues.

He also isn't even an American citizen. Which was very interesting.

LightningThief posted...

Moot point if their actions still aid Trump, which is the actual true danger here.

There are people here who proudly advocate for people to either stay home or vote 3rd party. Which does help Trump, which consequently has the opposite affect of whatever plan they had to help Muslims and Palestinians abroad and even worse in the US.

This topic about who is causing that effect though. It's Biden unless you think people that think facilitating genocide is categorically unacceptable to earn a FOR vote should abandon that view for some reason.

If you think that somehow it's not happening or that Biden isn't facilitating it, that's one thing. It's wrong, but that's a more defensible view. It's another to tell people how much they should care about it. And it's indefensible to spend energy telling people to swallow those feelings than energy spent on getting Biden to stop pushing those people away through his actions.

legendary_zell posted...

This topic about who is causing that effect though. It's Biden unless you think people that think facilitating genocide is categorically unacceptable to earn a FOR vote should abandon that view for some reason.

If you think that somehow it's not happening or that Biden isn't facilitating it, that's one thing. It's wrong, but that's a more defensible view. It's another to tell people how much they should care about it. And it's indefensible to spend energy telling people to swallow those feelings than energy spent on getting Biden to stop pushing those people away through his actions.

which means it is literally this

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/ef62e46c.jpg

You can claim nuance but that is literally what you are stating by claiming Biden lost your vote

Trump isn't bad enough to get you to vote Biden = Biden is just as bad as Trump

WingsOfGood posted...

Trump isn't bad enough to get you to vote Biden = Biden is just as bad as Trump

You posting this and thinking it makes sense is whats wrong with CE discourse.

mystic_belmont posted...

Let's say you have four voters, two are conservative, two are liberal. One of the liberal voters votes for Stein, while the other one vote for Biden. Both conservatives vote for Trump.

Congrats, Trump won.

That's true, but that's not Trump gaining votes. It's Biden losing one. It could be for a valid reason or an invalid reason. Or are you arguing that there's nothing Biden could do where you'd blame him for losing a vote? Is that just conceptually impossible in your minds?

Shadow_Don posted...

Honestly yeah I feel like I encounter these people all the time.

Like the guy in the other topic who passionately advocated for voting third party over Gaza and when asked who would be an adequate candidate he literally didn't know a single candidate who was even running.

Just completely fucking clueless on the issues.

Being ignorant about candidates is different from specifically not caring about substantive issues. Additionally, that person may have been an outright troll. That's not the type of person I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people I see at protests who are the same people who care most about all of the other various domestic and international issues, who vote, stay up to date on things, etc. None of them are the caricature you've got in your head.

I do feel like that this could absolutely fuck us through because it's a strong dividing factor. All these arguments is music to Trump supporters ears (Which is why you'll see some of them stir the pot). They've already made their decision. They're voting Trump and they've openly encouraged Gaza being wiped off the map.

We need to pressure Biden into doing the right thing, but we also need to not fuck everything up by not showing up to vote.

Otherwise none of this matters and a lot of us end up dead.

Gwynevere posted...

I mean if that's the logic you want to use, then it follows that anyone complicit in handing Republicans a W don't give a shit about any of the people that they're waiting to take aim at nationwide when they get the chance

Which is honestly probably true when it comes down to it

It's all a morality Yu-Gi-Oh game to them.
"I see you've played the 'Trump bad!' card. Well, you fell for my trap! I play 'BLUE EYES WHITE YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE!' I banish you to the BOTH SIDES BAD REALM!"

cuttin_in_farm posted...

You posting this and thinking it makes sense is whats wrong with CE discourse.

Do you believe an election is a vacuum?

legendary_zell posted...

Are you encountering people who are mad about Palestine and don't care about abortion rights, healthcare, policing, education, etc? Or are you just imagining that's what they think based on them saying they can't bring themselves to vote for Biden?

What other conclusion can you possibly reach? If you take actions, like staying home in November, that directly benefit Trump, then you don't care about any of those issues as much as you claim to, considering that it's not a "what if" scenario with how Trump and the Republicans handle them. We have 4 years of evidence and promises of what's to come with the next term if it comes to that.

WingsOfGood posted...

which means it is literally this

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/ef62e46c.jpg

You can claim nuance but that is literally what you are stating by claiming Biden lost your vote

Trump isn't bad enough to get you to vote Biden = Biden is just as bad as Trump

As tough as it is to say, Biden hasn't lost my vote. I've made the personal calculation that Biden is a better option than the alternatives, despite the evil he's committing daily. It's a very hard decision to come to and I don't feel good about it.

Many other people might not come to the same conclusion. That's what I'm saying. Your logic in that last sentence is just absurd. Someone can be much worse than someone else, while both don't meet basic standards of decency.

legendary_zell posted...

Many other people might not come to the same conclusion.

And why would that be?

Theres no more surefire way for Biden to tank his election chances than to take a strong stance against Israel.

Besides, no one will care about this conflict anymore come election time. Peoples attention spans arent that long.

Gwynevere posted...

If you take actions, like staying home in November, that directly benefit Trump, then you don't care about any of those issues as much as you claim to,

This 100%

legendary_zell posted...

Have you ever really had a conversation with someone who feels that way? Are you encountering people who are mad about Palestine and don't care about abortion rights, healthcare, policing, education, etc? Or are you just imagining that's what they think based on them saying they can't bring themselves to vote for Biden?

Yes, the Muslim people in my own family. Then when you tell them Trump has a good chance of winning and he'll get rid of Muslims in this country they stick their heads in the sand. And it's not just my family, it's all the people in the Muslim community that they meet at the Masjid who feel like that.

WingsOfGood posted...

And why would that be?

See what you're not understanding is that just because you vote for something or someone doesn't mean that you hold x or y idea. Once you get past that in your head, things will make a lot more sense.

legendary_zell posted...

Being ignorant about candidates is different from specifically not caring about substantive issues.

Feels like a distinction without much of a difference to me.

Like of you roll the die on RFK Jr because you don't like biden or trump then I'd say you are ignorant as fuck about public health issues.

That was just one specific poster though and obviously you don't have to defend them.

Probably a more general thing I've seen is people downplaying the danger of trump. Not saying that they support Trump, but its more they think if trump wins it will kind of suck but it will force dems to become more progressive in the 2028 election. And I'm like... what 2028 election?

Holy_Cloud105 posted...

Yes, the Muslim people in my own family. Then when you tell them Trump has a good chance of winning and he'll get rid of Muslims in this country they stick their heads in the sand. And it's not just my family, it's all the people in the Muslim community that they meet at the Masjid who feel like that.

Did they forget about Trump's Muslim ban?

WingsOfGood posted...

Did they forget about Trump's Muslim ban?

Of course they did. They have the memory of a goldfish. Others say he never did that or that he just won't win.

MrMojoRising posted...

See what you're not understanding is that just because you vote for something or someone doesn't mean that you hold x or y idea. Once you get past that in your head, things will make a lot more sense.

I am the one who gets that actually. You can vote Biden and dislike his Israel policy.

Is that hard to comprehend? So how does he lose the election then?

It is because these people are INFACT suggesting the opposite of what you say.

edit: if I have to SPELL it out for you, voting Biden does not mean you support genocide

Basically, if Biden pulls military aid from Israel, AIPAC buries him, and Trump wins.

MrMojoRising posted...

See what you're not understanding is that just because you vote for something or someone doesn't mean that you hold x or y idea. Once you get past that in your head, things will make a lot more sense.

In another topic you straight up said that you dont think Trump is gonna take rights away if he wins.

You dont care about Israel/Palestine or Bidens stance on it.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

In another topic you straight up said that you dont think Trump is gonna take rights away if he wins.

You dont care about Israel or Bidens stance on it.

Yup. This is what I was talking about in post 138

Pretty sure that dude is a straight tankie and/or an accelerationist.

WingsOfGood posted...

I am the one who gets that actually. You can vote Biden and dislike his Israel policy.

Is that hard to comprehend? So how does he lose the election then?

You're close. You can also not vote for Biden and dislike Trump and even think he's worse than Biden. Is that so hard to comprehend?

What you vote for isn't who you are. Just like I wouldn't say that you like Biden's Israel policy because you vote for him, don't insult people by saying that they want Trump because they won't vote for Biden.

Shadow_Don posted...

Yup. This is what I was talking about in post 138

Pretty sure that dude is a straight tankie and/or an accelerationist.

Nah based on his posts in the other topic he seemed to be closer to a Trump supporter than anything. The arguments he was making werent leftist

ssb_yunglink2 posted...

In another topic you straight up said that you dont think Trump is gonna take rights away if he wins.

No, I asked the person what rights Trump is going to take away so I could specifically answer his hypothetical. He never answered me. People like him like to throw vague ideas and stuff and cower back when you ask them to explain.