Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 192: Impact Wrestling goes live...again!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Secondary world title, like the WWECW Championship? (and please don't call the WHC secondary)

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Pimpin' still Aint Easy for this Pimp Daddy, even after 11+ years on GameFAQs

at least until the Spurs start at 9

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Muffin's opinion is that whichever World Title is on SD at any given time is "secondary."

So sometimes the WHC is the primary title and sometimes it's not.

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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.
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As someone who really liked 1997/1998 ECW, it really really craps all over the nostalgia center of my brain to see Taz sucking up to Hogan.

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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.
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If your title goes for a year without main eventing a PPV, it's secondary.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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So really the WHC has only been secondary since October 2011 then?

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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.
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Nah, once you go a year, you're demoted permanently. Or at least until you main event say, 3 PPVs in a row or something like that, which I'm fairly confident the SD title has never done.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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WWE is well on its way to having no primary World Titles then! <__<

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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.
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I think Tensai is gettin too much crap IMO, A-Train was/is a cool guy. Although it doesn't really seem like the IWC or marks are really going for him, I think he has a much better shot of getting over then say, bald Snitsky or monster Kozlov. He has a good move set and presence, even if he did botch during that one match. It took Sheamus awhile after he got the WWE belt the first time to get over.

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Yo Where All The White Women At

it's not really his fault

they saddled him with a lame ass gimmick and had him wrestle in a really boring/methodical style that's not suited for wwe audiences

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snowy
first name katana, last name swordsworth. also middle name katana

^ Exactly. I think his gimmick could have gotten over if his matches weren't so slow.

OK, I just did a partial run of the ranking I suggested, using the champions with a continuous reign of at least a year, and the multi-time champions of this era. Here are those rankings.

Pedro Morales - 1 reign, 1027 days, 1027 total points
Bob Backlund - 2 reigns, 2138 days, 4276 total points
Randy Orton - 9 reigns, 558 days, 5022 total points
Edge - 11 reigns, 548 days, 6028 total points
Bruno Sammartino - 2 reigns, 4040 days, 8080 total points
Hulk Hogan - 6 reigns, 2185 days, 13110 total points
John Cena - 12 reigns, 1163 days, 13956 total points
Triple H - 13 reigns, 1155 days, 15015 total points

Pretty good. I wonder if I can get Bruno & them a little higher.

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any ranking that puts HHH at #1 has a VERY decent shot at getting officially adopted by WWE <_<

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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Pro Wrestling Sabermetrics is totally gonna be a section of The Thesz Press

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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.
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What would Punk's score be? He's a 4 time champ (possibly 5 or 6 time depending how you count the time between MitB 2011 and Summerslam, and if you count the ECW title) and his current reign has been going for over six months now. I know he wouldn't be up there with these guys but I'd imagine he's one of the next couple guys down the list.

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SuperNiceDog didn't have to reconcile his name...
But Dauntless Hunter is now MrGreenonion

5 time champ without any shaky counting.

2008 MitB cash-in
2009 MitB cash-in
2009 Summerslam vs. Jeff Hardy
2011 Money in the Bank PPV vs. Cena
2011 Survivor Series vs. Del Rio

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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.
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Oh right, I forgot that he won the title twice in the Jeff Hardy feud.

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SuperNiceDog didn't have to reconcile his name...
But Dauntless Hunter is now MrGreenonion

Yeah Punk's had a TON of defences this reign (those 3 vs. Henry helped) so it's been "good" even if he's only main-evented with it once.

I think 'successful defenses' would be hard to find complete information for, especially for old school guys. I'm assuming that one of the reasons you want a system is to compare guys like Sammartino and Backlund to guys like Orton and Edge. I say try the first two, and see how it goes.

I think this would strictly be a modern-era thing, and I'd probably only start adopting it from now if I could come up with a way to measure it properly.

I'd also give WWE and World titles equal weighting simply because WWE says that they do, even if their actions imply otherwise.

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since mines is Devil may cry i probley would it up to the spiderboss and get killed off after that then ill yell LIGHT - ertyu on how far he'd make it in DMC

CM Punk is 1905 (not counting ECW) so at least he beats Morales.

I'll try to do more of these tonight.

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Pimpin' still Aint Easy for this Pimp Daddy, even after 11+ years on GameFAQs

I was also thinking of dividing it by 10 to make the numbers less ridiculous

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XIII_rocks, the cream of XIII fanboyism.

XIII_rocks posted...

I think this would strictly be a modern-era thing, and I'd probably only start adopting it from now if I could come up with a way to measure it properly.

Ah, ok. I was thinking of a way to include everyone, I'm a completist like that.

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Pimpin' still Aint Easy for this Pimp Daddy, even after 11+ years on GameFAQs

If we're going Real Metricy, also divide the reign value by the number of World Titles in the company at the time.

I.E. Being the Undisputed Champion of your company is worth more than possessing only half of the "True" World Championship.

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Okay, rant time. Will contain minor Impact spoilers.

TNA is clearly on a new "reality-based" kick, what with the opening segment last week and all the Gut Check stuff. This REEKS of Eric Bischoff meddling but that's beside the point.

The opening promo last week had its defenders as well as its detractors. I can see both sides to the argument. Much like Punk's promo-heard-round-the-world last year, it deftly toed the line between work and worked shoot, existing both outside of kayfabe and yet within it at the same time, depending on who's listening and what they're listening for. That's fine. There's room for that sort of thing, sparingly. It was executed very well for what it was.

On the completely opposite side of the worked shoot spectrum, we have Gut Check.

Let's put aside the fact that it's not 2003 anymore and trying to be American Idol is no longer quite as cutting edge as it once was. Timeliness isn't everything. Let's put aside the fact that separating the match from the judging by a week is counter-productive, because by the time they get to the judging, most casual fans have forgotten the match (if they even saw it). That's easily fixable.

The entire foundation behind the Gut Check is too stupid to be allowed to exist.

First let's clear the air. Gut Check does not exist within TNA's worked universe, much like Tough Enough simply cannot exist within WWE's. It is not an in-kayfabe talent scouting process. It is overtly about a professional wrestler's character and presence and ability to work a match.

That means that Gut Check is one of two things. It is either:
A.) An actual shoot evaluation of an aspiring wrestler's potential for TNA stardom
or more likely
B.) A worked shoot evaluation of an aspiring wrestler's potential for TNA stardom.

Option A would actually be LESS of an issue. If that was actually the case, that there is no script and people like Alex Silva and Joey Ryan are legitimately out there trying to wow the judges to get a job, at least there are actual stakes. It's still incredibly disjointed to actually put that ON THE AIR on your flagship program, but whatever, it's an experiment.

For you to accept Gut Check as a "thing that exists," you first have to accept the notion that everything else you're watching on the show is fake and this is real. NOT ONLY does that completely neuter the matches (which is salvageable) but also the "serious angles" they're trying to run like this AJ/Dixie thing. There is a segment ON THE SAME SHOW that inherently undermines it. If you're going to do something that shortsighted, there better AT LEAST be something real at stake.

But Option B is what Gut Check really is, and that is precisely why it fails.

They MAKE THE CHOICE to remove us from our suspension of disbelief, to craft a SECOND LAYER of suspension of disbelief.

And for what.

And for WHAT I ask you.

To tell someone that they have a job, or in this case, that they DON'T.

And it's especially worse when they don't get the job, because then TNA has just asked its fans to waste a combined 30 minutes of showtime over 2 weeks to watch an event that doesn't exist within continuity that changed NOTHING about the show you TUNED IN TO WATCH.

#iwantwrestling

(P.S. don't get me started on how they had the fans VOTE FOR A MATCH THEY WANTED TO SEE AND THEN ENDED IT IN A SCHMOZZ)

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Yeah, I'd say that's one of the things that just made me go "f*** this show". If I have to tune in and dedicate thirty minutes of my time that ultimately amounts to absolutely nothing and honestly is embarrassingly bad and unentertaining, I'm not going to bother. At least when FCW and WWE have bad segments, they usually mean something, even if a little. This just meant absolutely nothing in every aspect. Why even bother with this crap? Especially when the fans are getting involved and actively seem like they want to see more of this guy, and then they just say "No, nevermind. We're not going to let you see him again." Just... what's the point?

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WarThaNemesis2 posted...

If we're going Real Metricy, also divide the reign value by the number of World Titles in the company at the time.

I.E. Being the Undisputed Champion of your company is worth more than possessing only half of the "True" World Championship.

With that, Triple H's reigns count as 9, and his number is 10395, so he would dip below Hogan. Edge and Orton dip below Backlund, and Cena is 6978, below Sammartino.

...I think I like this.

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From: Jakyl25 | #422
And for what.

And for WHAT I ask you.
For who? For what?

Great rant, though. The... sheer idiocy of Gut Check existing as it does caused me to think I must be misunderstanding the segment. "There's no way this is what I think it is. That would just be too damn stupid. I must just not understand the premise."

Also wrestling sabermetrics is beautiful. I have envisioned doing something like that a few times, but I figured I was just strange and that no one else cared about rankings like that.

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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Lol, poor Ricky Watters.

Yeah, stats are fun stuff. I've wanted to do something like this too, I considered doing it at the end of 2009 (end of a decade, seemed like a good benchmark) but never got around to it.

Also, for anyone else working, I took the liberty of compiling some pure stats, adding together WWE and WHC reigns for anyone who has won both:

Randy Orton - 9 reigns, 558 days
Edge - 11 reigns, 548 days
John Cena - 12 reigns, 1163 days
Triple H - 13 reigns, 1155 days
Batista - 6 reigns, 544 days
Undertaker - 7 reigns, 445 days
CM Punk - 5 reigns, 381 days
Kane - 2 reigns, 155 days
Rey Mysterio - 3 reigns, 140.1 days
Chris Jericho - 4 reigns, 204 days
Kurt Angle - 5 reigns, 379 days
Sheamus - 3 reigns, 222 days
Jeff Hardy - 3 reigns, 70 days
Shawn Michaels - 4 reigns, 424 days
Big Show - 3 reigns, 78.1 days

In the case of active champs Punk and Sheamus, the days count up to today (Friday), so they'll obviously get higher.

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Pimpin' still Aint Easy for this Pimp Daddy, even after 11+ years on GameFAQs

Man Gut Check wasn't even the worst segment tonight-- that goes to Dixie + Brooke Hogan getting 10 minutes on the mic.

I mean yeah I kinda agree Gut Check is a stupid concept I'm just saying at least Al Snow and Taz can talk so it's vaguely watchable.

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No problem!
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Also I think you're overestimating how "shoot"like Gut Check is supposed to be. To me it's 100% work. It's not treading a line like the opening segment of last week. It's not "exposing the business." It's just presenting wrestling as something that is not 100% about winning matches, but also about looking good or being innovative while doing it, and also a business that you need heart and determination and whatnot to succeed in. That's not at odds with "kayfabe" or whatever in my eyes, though-- that's how I thought wrestling always viewed itself. Commentary you hear a lot of stuff like "this kid has grit" or "this kid has a special something" now they're just bringing that to more of a focus.

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No problem!
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I went and sorted the list by days because I was curious how it looks that way.

John Cena - 12 reigns, 1163 days
Triple H - 13 reigns, 1155 days
Randy Orton - 9 reigns, 558 days
Edge - 11 reigns, 548 days
Batista - 6 reigns, 544 days
Undertaker - 7 reigns, 445 days
Shawn Michaels - 4 reigns, 424 days
CM Punk - 5 reigns, 381 days
Kurt Angle - 5 reigns, 379 days
Sheamus - 3 reigns, 222 days
Chris Jericho - 4 reigns, 204 days
Kane - 2 reigns, 155 days
Rey Mysterio - 3 reigns, 140.1 days
Big Show - 3 reigns, 78.1 days
Jeff Hardy - 3 reigns, 70 days

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Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
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John Cena - 12 reigns, 1163 days
Triple H - 13 reigns, 1155 days

HHH to have a two-weeks long reign coming soon.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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Counterpoint:

It wasnt Brodus Clay.

Ill agree about the Brooke Hogan and Dixie, but I am surprised that you all hate on Gut Check so much. Even if nothing comes of it, youd think you guys would appreciate a major company like TNA giving a platform to indie guys who may or may not be know quantities yet.

For my money, I think that it takes place in two weeks precisely so an actual judgment can precede the worked judgment.

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From: Lopen | #428
It's just presenting wrestling as something that is not 100% about winning matches, but also about looking good or being innovative while doing it, and also a business that you need heart and determination and whatnot to succeed in. That's not at odds with "kayfabe" or whatever in my eyes, though-- that's how I thought wrestling always viewed itself. Commentary you hear a lot of stuff like "this kid has grit" or "this kid has a special something" now they're just bringing that to more of a focus.

IMO this goes WAY beyond that idea. When they air this stuff and they talk about character development and gimmick and how he sells this opportunity and how his promo "isn't good enough" when it contains literal facts about why he should be hired in kayfabe, it just really flies way over that line for me.

I know what you're saying about winning matches, and I agree that even in kayfabe, winning isn't EVERYTHING. Even in MMA and boxing, winning isn't EVERYTHING. But it is the bottom line. Being entertaining will get you more opportunities SHOULD YOU LOSE, and will even get you opportunities faster if you WIN, but as long as you WIN, in the long run that should count most of all.

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From: edwardsdv | #431
For my money, I think that it takes place in two weeks precisely so an actual judgment can precede the worked judgment.

I sincerely hope that they're not doing the actual judgment off of just the Gut Check match. <_<

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Thank you, Eddie Guerrero.
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Small touch up to that list, Jeff Hardy should have a ".1" next to his days count for his minutes-long reign that was ended by Punk.

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Pimpin' still Aint Easy for this Pimp Daddy, even after 11+ years on GameFAQs

I'll edit that in.

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I agree with Jakyl generally that anytime you set aside a certain portion of the show to emphasize "HEY GUYS THIS PART IS REAL" you're also drawing attention to everything else being NOT real, I feel like he's over-selling this being unique to gut check. The industry in general, and TNA especially, does this kind of thing ALL THE TIME these days. They do it so often that I barely even notice it anymore.

I will also say though that Gut Check so far has failed because the guy who DIDN'T get signed had a better personality, was better in-ring, and was more competitive against a MUCH MUCH stronger kayfabe opponent than the guy who DID get signed. I mean, if winning (or at least being competitive) doesn't matter, then why bother even having the matches?

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg
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so what score does this put Andre the Giant at?

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And yet when a guy loses, what then do you judge them on? You can't say "winning is the bottom line" because both of the guys lost-- if they make it that simple then both guys just get tossed out without a second thought.

I think you should reserve judgment for how they weigh a guy winning his match until a guy actually, you know, actually wins a match. The way I see it is they're going off the other stuff because they have to.

"You should hire me because the people like me" is a fact but it also doesn't bring anything to the table. Also gives the indication that a guy might be apt to rest on his laurels rather than strive to be more. They don't want an argument for why a guy should be hired they want to see "that spark" that a guy needs to succeed in wrestling.

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No problem!
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Although don't get me wrong, Gut Check WASN'T the worst part of the show.

It's just the easiest thing to rant on.

Jeff Hardy vs. Devon actually OFFENDED me as a fan. They spent a week hyping up the fan vote and then they just knelt down and took a nice big dump all over it.

But lest I be too negative, POSITIVES ABOUT THE SHOW:

1.) AJ vs. Daniels (the match)
2.) Aries vs. Sabin
3.) Bully RayJoseph Park

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From: SmartMuffin | #436

I will also say though that Gut Check so far has failed because the guy who DIDN'T get signed had a better personality, was better in-ring, and was more competitive against a MUCH MUCH stronger kayfabe opponent than the guy who DID get signed. I mean, if winning (or at least being competitive) doesn't matter, then why bother even having the matches?

Though I will say I agree with this 100%. If you look at both segments in a vacuum it's fine but if you look at both together it does look pretty weird.

For me I suppose you can chalk that up to "well there are new judges now and Taz is more of a hardass than Flair"

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No problem!
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As far as "how else do you evaluate them," maybe actually look and see how they fared in the match.

Alex Silva lost fairly quickly to Robbie E, who as Muffin has pointed out may actually be the lowest guy on the TNA singles ladder.

Joey Ryan lost a short but competitive match to longest-reigning X-Division Champion of all-time Austin Aries.

Those performances on a kayfabe level don't really compare.

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edwardsdv posted...

so what score does this put Andre the Giant at?

Heh, I guess ".1" like Dolph Ziggler. Although their reigns weren't exactly the same time. We might have to work on that.

Crap, just remembered, we should add a ".1" to Triple H and Randy Orton for that No Mercy 2007 thing.

OK, who else has had an incredibly short reign? So far we got Show/Rey/Jeff/Trips/Orton/Andre/Ziggler.

Oh yeah, Yokozuna, that will come later.

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Pimpin' still Aint Easy for this Pimp Daddy, even after 11+ years on GameFAQs

Sounds like they did an effective job garnering heat.

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late night purotube for anyone that cares!

http://www.synchtube.com/r/Snowy

plus i'm down with throwing suggestions into the playlist

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snowy
first name katana, last name swordsworth. also middle name katana

Or you can just look at what "stuff" they showed in the match. I don't see a big difference. They're just different ways to say "you looked good out there, but you lost."

Like I don't think it's fair to say "oh well this guy held up against Austin Aries and this guy held up against Robbie E" cause then you put too much weight on the opponent. I also don't think either guy did anything particularly notable against his opponent. It's not like Aries was ever in serious trouble. If they have a match in gut check where a guy stays in say the Last Chancery of Aries for 20 seconds before tapping-- then they can say "wow you had a lot of grit in there" as a big point more than "well give me a promo I wanna see if you have the charisma"

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Maybe this is why they put Sting's CLEAN WIN OVER BOBBY ROODE at the top of the show, so that it kind of slips our minds by the end of it.

Because I just remembered that and why did that happen?

The only way to save that is for them to sell the idea that Roode would tap quicker in a non-title situation, and that when the belt is on the line it won't be that easy.

This is the same problem as Big Show's push--the mechanics of it are fine and logical (someone getting a non-title win over Roode in strange circumstances is fine), it's just that the person chosen for the role is just soooo stale.

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OK, the last very short reign is John Cena at Elimination Chamber 2010, when he had to fight Batista immediately after winning the title in a Chamber.

(Heh, this 'dueling conversations' thing is fun)

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Pimpin' still Aint Easy for this Pimp Daddy, even after 11+ years on GameFAQs

From: DSAutoResponder | #444
late night purotube for anyone that cares!

http://www.synchtube.com/r/Snowy

plus i'm down with throwing suggestions into the playlist
just a note on this that it's not puro exclusive or anything

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snowy
first name katana, last name swordsworth. also middle name katana

Well, the ideal person for this would obviously be Storm... but I would have used Anderson or Angle over Sting for sure. Unlike Show, they actually DO have other options.

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The one and only Underdog Millionaire and UCA CORPORATE Champion

And I don't know if anyone at TNA will come out and say it, but I will.

Sting is done.

Sting is washed the f*** up.

Sting can't wrestle a good match anymore.

Sting should not be headlining PPVs.

Sting should not be getting World Title shots.

You wanna put him in a tag match and let him do his spots off the hot tag? Fine. You wanna use him as a nostalgia act against Hogan on the undercard to maybe sell a couple more PPVs and get the rising stars more spotlight? Fine.

But the guy just doesn't have it anymore.

It'll be by the thinnest of margins, but I would bet a small amount of money that Cena vs. Big Show will be the better of the two matches.

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