Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 457: Ticket Sales are Experiencing a Super Slow-Down

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jakyl25 posted...

Each season should have a fresh main writer

That's kinda the feel I got from the first two seasons at least. I feel like they changed up the formula pretty well to start the second season. Honestly I thought it was sustainable enough but I haven't seen anything after that cause Netflix.
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I would describe it this way: it's very quickly becoming the bad Impact. And, meanwhile, Impact has generally become a good Lucha Underground (although the current main event feud is a little uninteresting).
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Jakyl25 posted...

I do mean from a writing standpoint

If you craft a fantastical universe like that, there is going to have to be creative burnout as you constantly feel like you have to one-up yourself

Each season should have a fresh main writer

I mean CHIKARA has a pretty crazy universe and it is up to season 19. The key thing is learning that you don't always have to one up yourself. Sometimes you run big universe wide storylines and sometimes you run smaller personal stories.
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Yeah, again, I never said it was objective. Maybe start dealing with what I actually said? Obviously this is just my opinion because I dislike them. Did I need to put an IMO in there somewhere to make that clear? It's confusing to have seen, over the years, the Bellas become normalized and accepted when they're basically as bad as they've always been, IMO.

HashtagSEP posted...

How is this not "I want this unrelated incident from a completely different person to morph into talking about how somebody else is bad" and how is this not an irrational response?

Because conversation "morphs" all the damn time? That's kind of how it works? Before I made my opening post here the conversation had already shifted from Brie's botch into a discussion about who was at fault for Paige's career-ending injury, and you yourself made this post:

I mean half of this topic defended Sasha when she went on a streak of almost killing herself and hurting other people in every other match so it's not really new

This completely changed the direction of the conversation and "morphed" it into something new, a Sasha thing rather than a Brie thing. Lopen then brought up the Paige incident, turning it into a Paige/Sasha thing rather than just a Sasha thing. You might say that it was natural to compare Sasha to Brie in this situation, and I don't disagree. But then I'd say that Nikki is a natural comparison/accompaniment to Brie, for obvious reasons.

You're acting like this is irrational when you've done the exact same thing in this very topic - "morphed a conversation into talking about how somebody else is bad". And there's nothing wrong with that! It was a fair comparison to make, the natural direction of the conversation. I'm just hoping that the conversation here becomes an anti-Nikki thing.

So you did the thing you are calling "irrational" in this topic, morphed a conversation into talking about someone else who was, at the time, unrelated. You obviously don't think that was an irrational thing to happen or to expect to happen, you likely thought it was a good comparison to make. So what separates us? Where does what I want to happen differ from what you have actually made happen just a few posts ago? Is the "irrational" part that I want discussion about Brie Bella to change in order to include discussion about Nikki Bella - but changing it to talk about Sasha is fine? So it's OK to bring up another, totally unrelated, wrestler who has botched a few times, but not OK to bring up her twin sister and tag-team partner and reality show(s) co-star?

Also, still waiting for examples of me being some anti-cynic and how this is hypocritical, because otherwise it's just a pretty unfair accusation lazily hurled around with nothing to back it up.
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No dammit, I want to talk about my thing now. We've spent days on Brie Bella.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

No dammit, I want to talk about my thing now. We've spent days on Brie Bella.

I think SEP and I are pretty close to an understanding here so just have a little patience.

Also that's not how topics work, you can have two conversations in parallel
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XIII_rocks posted...

Also that's not how topics work, you can have two conversations in parallel

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XIII_rocks posted...

Lopen then brought up the Paige incident, turning it into a Paige/Sasha thing rather than just a Sasha thing. You might say that it was natural to compare Sasha to Brie in this situation, and I don't disagree. But then I'd say that Nikki is a natural comparison/accompaniment to Brie, for obvious reasons.

Kinda like how racists would say a random black person's crime would be a natural accompaniment to Obama, I guess? There's gotta be a word for this kinda discrimination.
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I think the word you're looking for is "Absurdumb"

Or maybe that's just the word for posting in this topic
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Well I don't want to throw down another wall of text but since somebody did ask:

@Jakyl25 posted...

I missed this! What happened to break you?

I've been sour on them for a while but I think the epiphany came when the fans got blamed for what happened in Rollins/Ziggler.

I mean, those fans were dumb idiots. But WWE is 100% at fault for people wanting to hijack one or more of their shows. Ultimate blame for that happening lies with the company, not the crowd. You criticised the fans who chanted "Husky Harris" when Bray Wyatt debuted, but I see that kind of thing as a symptom of WWE constantly lowering the bar of decency to the centre of the earth. WWE were trying to sell us Bray Wyatt, and those fans rejected what WWE were selling because WWE are an enormous piece of shit of a company.

And I feel like everyone ITT knows that but it's sort of just accepted at this point. And that's the problem - everyone accepts that WWE are pieces of shit and just goes along with it. But then people almost forget that, because it's so accepted? Like how you forget that you're breathing, it just sort of happens automatically - WWE's tremendous shittiness is so readily accepted by everyone that it's naturally assumed in any conversation about wrestling. It goes unspoken, but then it's forgotten when stuff like the Rollins/Ziggler crowd happens. WWE are the only mainstream wrestling show in town and also pieces of shit, so people will simultaneously support them and dislike them.

I mean, look at the way they changed the Warrior award to be something completely different to what Warrior originally spoke about. Are fans thinking of that specific disgrace when they boo Rollins/Ziggler or when they chant Husky Harris? No, but it's just another shitty thing they've done and it contributes to the toxic cesspool that is perception of WWE - which leads to people simultaneously hating WWE and watching it/supporting it.

So basically - I saw yet another person blaming the fans for Rollins/Ziggler, and I had this weird snap of a realization that people maybe wouldn't pull shit like that if WWE weren't the fucking worst. Why shouldn't the show get hijacked? Why should the fans go along with what WWE wants when WWE are the fucking worst? And then I actually thought about that, because it's the kind of thing you just say in passing - that WWE are the fucking worst - and like I said, it's almost such a universally accepted truth that you give it no thought. So this time I took a minute to consider the enormity of what I was saying: to declare a company "the fucking worst" and to declare it so casually and so often that it's not even shocking anymore. So it went from "yeah, as we all know, WWE are the fucking worst" to "Holy fucking shit, WWE are the fucking worst." I had this epiphany moment where I realized that yes, they really are the fucking worst, aren't they? And we kind of just take the individual shitty things they do one at a time because we're so used to them doing shitty things, but we don't step back and think about the big picture there which is that, yeah, they're the fucking worst.

So now, even when the fans act like idiots, my stance is that said idiocy is only the product of what WWE have created. People don't go to NJPW shows to hijack them because NJPW haven't done as many shitty things as WWE have. Because WWE really, truly are the fucking worst.
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To me, that actually reads like WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because...

Which is actually kind of how my thinking tends to trend when I watch something like a RAW.
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You're missing my point.

Conversation/discussion morphs naturally, yes

But what you were doing was specifically wanting it to morph into something it wasn't. You wanted to skip the "Brie botched" discussion and go straight to "Nikki sucks." You were expressing joy that people might be dumb and go "See? Brie botched, Nikki sucks!" You were basically just chomping at the bit to skip from Step 1 to Step 4. Nobody said "Brie botched, so Sasha sucks." We were talking about the defense of botching, since somebody brought up that people were defending Brie and it surprised him.

Like, you outright went "Anything Brie does reflects on Nikki and that's their fault for being twins." That's stupid.

You then admitted that was stupid, and said that YOU personally didn't actually think that, but people may. Okay, that's fair.

...But then you were cheering on the fact that people are dumb and do that. That's stupid, again. You even outright said "Well if people don't treat them as individuals that's their fault for being twins, not mine, and I support people doing that."

That's absurdumb.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

To me, that actually reads like WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because...

Which is actually kind of how my thinking tends to trend when I watch something like a RAW.

Well I mean I don't necessarily want to say that WWE fans are blameless - I did specifically call them idiots and some of them are really grotesque people - but this toxic atmosphere where they can turn on the product at any moment was cultivated by WWE. The blame lies with them.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

To me, that actually reads like WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because...

Which is actually kind of how my thinking tends to trend when I watch something like a RAW.

The issue is that wwe has integrated fans as a character
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HashtagSEP posted...

...But then you were cheering on the fact that people are dumb and do that. That's stupid, again. You even outright said "Well if people don't treat them as individuals that's their fault for being twins, not mine, and I support people doing that."

Right, so now we're at the crux of it.

To blame Nikki for what Brie does is obviously unfair. But like I said, that's only a starting point. So yeah, you have this initial, unfair moment where Nikki is tarred with Brie's brush, but discussion would hypothetically move away from that, and by then an honest discussion about Nikki's ability has started. And once discussion "morphs" away from that initial, unfair lie, we get to the brutal truth, and that is absolutely fair. So basically, you have this one unfair bullshit moment that starts a very valid conversation, one that hasn't happened enough in the last few years. Very often something that is untrue or unfair is used as a catalyst for discussions that need to happen. That's not unusual or irrational to expect. "This thing may not have happened, but it has started a worthwhile discussion about XYZ".

Recently, there was an announcement that the remastered Spyro trilogy would only have the first game on disk, and that the other two would need a download. Now, to me this doesn't really matter that much since I'm DLing it from the store, although I do see the issue. But what happened then was a discussion on the merits of physical vs. digital, why it's important to have the whole thing physical, the "rights of the consumer", and a bunch of other stuff. Some genuinely interesting topics, a couple of which I hadn't really put much thought into before. And then there was the more spicy discussion about the extent to which Activision, also, are the fucking worst. Now imagine for a second that this turned out to be totally untrue, and that all three games would be on disk, that whoever reported it had made it up. It wouldn't have changed the shady stuff Activision did before, would it? Unfair to criticise them for this in particular because they did nothing wrong, but it would have brought the prior issues people have with the company back into the spotlight, altering the discourse.

I'm expecting you to point out how the situations are entirely different and whatever but the basic point, and the reason I made the comparison, is this: even from a false pretense, a valid discussion can happen. And it regularly does. To expect that is realistic, not irrational.
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The difference between what you're talking about and the Spyro thing is Activision had actually botched moves and injured people so it's not something that requires a leap. Activision is Sasha Banks here, not Nikki Bella.

It would be more like if we had that Spyro trilogy discussion, then people started railing on, I dunno, Godzilla 2 for the NES because it features a dragon like Spyro does. Sure Godzilla 2 for the NES does kinda suck but it's a dumb and irrational way to evolve a conversation from the initial point.
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but is brie bella a mario character
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Briette isn't a thing yet.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfgvEHdIfPM" data-time="

Yes she is.
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Yeah when they crowned Marty champ ahead of UL in the manner in which they did that I gave up all hope for season 4 being actually good.

Pentagon vs Cage series ruled but it was masking some real issues.
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... oh god Marty the Moth is the champion are you serious. Maybe I should just stop with Season 2.
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XIII_rocks posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

To me, that actually reads like WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because its fans are the worst because WWE is the worst because...

Which is actually kind of how my thinking tends to trend when I watch something like a RAW.

Well I mean I don't necessarily want to say that WWE fans are blameless - I did specifically call them idiots and some of them are really grotesque people - but this toxic atmosphere where they can turn on the product at any moment was cultivated by WWE. The blame lies with them.

Welcome to my position.

WWE doesn't have to be this bad - I had a similar epiphany when I first started listening to PWTorch because Wade Keller is always so laser focused on "is this the reaction they want". At first I instinctively deflected it; I liked Cena too much but once we started launching into the Roman years it suddenly made sense to me what Wades issue is - this whole situation where your top babyface is greeted with raucous boos everywhere he goes is SUPER STRANGE and indicative of some really deeply ingrained problems.
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Does that mean you forgive Pittsburgh for the Royal Rumble yet Eddv?
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Does that mean you forgive Pittsburgh for the Royal Rumble yet Eddv?

Not quite - because Batista certainly didnt ever deserve that.
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Yeah honestly I defend the audience a ton in general-- like if there's something fundamentally wrong with a match that I can see, I'll support them in crapping on it, but that Rumble wasn't even that bad. The one where Roman won the next year as Big Show and Kane methodically eliminated all the threats so Roman could make his comeback vs LET'S HAVE HIM BEAT TWO MONSTERS GOD DAMMIT was much worse.

Especially since the WWE audience friggin loved Rock beating Punk the year before which was a way worse booking decision in terms of putting over the part timer.
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Eddv posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Does that mean you forgive Pittsburgh for the Royal Rumble yet Eddv?

Not quite - because Batista certainly didnt ever deserve that.

How can we earn your love again Eddv? What do we have to do damnit?
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My issues with my former home town run a whole lot deeper than Royal Rumble I admit.
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Lopen posted...

The difference between what you're talking about and the Spyro thing is Activision had actually botched moves and injured people so it's not something that requires a leap. Activision is Sasha Banks here, not Nikki Bella.

It would be more like if we had that Spyro trilogy discussion, then people started railing on, I dunno, Godzilla 2 for the NES because it features a dragon like Spyro does. Sure Godzilla 2 for the NES does kinda suck but it's a dumb and irrational way to evolve a conversation from the initial point.

To botch like Brie has been is to be a bad pro wrestler, which she is, so it's not really just about the botches - that's one facet of her ability as a wrestler. You can expand from "regularly injures people" to "is bad" very easily. Nikki and Brie aren't the same person but are thoroughly joined due to their history and branding. Not exactly a huge leap. Certainly much closer than Spyro and Godzilla 2.
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Okay maybe it's more like Spyro to Gex Enter the Gecko because they're both platformers released on the PSX about reptiles if you want to split hairs.

It's still super stupid.
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https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/218-pro-wrestling-wwe/77037378

Wasn't exactly difficult to find. It's mostly about Brie, obviously (which is fine, I never asked for or expected an even split), but about three or four times the totally inevitable Nikki comparison is made. How irrational of me to ever think that would happen!
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XIII_rocks posted...

How irrational of me to ever think that would happen!

Nobody said that

We said it's dumb to do it and even dumber to gleefully support it
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Okay so in that topic with about 20 or 30 people talking there are three or four other people as irrationally upset with Nikki as you are? What are you proving there? A random racist could go find some Rush Limbaugh tweets to try and validate some rants against Obama too I guess so I guess that makes that okay too.
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https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/218-pro-wrestling-wwe/77039177
So Brie does something dumb and people start talking about her sister as well. Some posts support Nikki, many trash both of them.

Your only argument here is that it's wrong for me to desire something like this when I know it's unfair to Nikki. The idea that the conversation wouldn't evolve to include Nikki has been dismissed.
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Also, just to play along, I ctrl + f'd Nikki in that topic

pipebomb_phil posted...

Brie Bella needs to fuck off.

Take Nikki Bella with her too.

agreed88 posted...

Shout out to both Nikki and Natty on the ring side who instantly stopped selling a cheerful comeback from Bre when they realized just how bad she fucked up.

Iceyflame posted...

People always say Bellas like its both of them its just Brie over the years Brie has managed to make little to no progress she still sloppy and manages to fuck up on the regular

Nikki is at least fairly competent in ring put on some pretty good matches and not a danger to her opponents

ssjmole posted...

Iceyflame posted...

People always say Bellas like its both of them its just Brie over the years Brie has managed to make little to no progress she still sloppy and manages to fuck up on the regular

Nikki is at least fairly competent in ring put on some pretty good matches and not a danger to her opponents

This is also true.

darealjackslate posted...

Iceyflame posted...

Nikki is at least fairly competent in ring put on some pretty good matches

No she hasn't. Her shitty title reign and how it looked especially when juxtaposed with what was going on NXT at the time is a big reason why there was such an outcry for a "revolution" from the fanbase. Just because Brie is dumpster juice doesn't mean we should give Nikki props she doesn't deserve and hasn't earned. She sucks too. Not to the extent of being bottom 3 all-time with the likes of Eva Marie, her sister, and Jackie Gayda...but she's consistently been bad her entire career in the ring.

Only one person is actually doing what you want. Maybe one and a half.

Bad topic to link to.
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Does this mean that XIII is to this APWT that Corrick is to the Politics topic?
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Someone get Corrik in here to tell us to stop responding to XIII.
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Well that's just a shitty thing to say that makes very little sense.

I even responded kindly to your earlier post.
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I mean I even like Corrik but "these other people are doing it so it must be okay" is like his go to when he's making a dumb argument.
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Actually I'm just gonna delete that post and go back to not replying because this is so dumb
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HashtagSEP posted...

Only one person is actually doing what you want. Maybe one and a half.

Bad topic to link to.

It's worth pointing out that I originally made this about both Bellas. You guys are the ones who separated Nikki and argued that it wasn't right to want her to also be discussed because of Brie's mistake. Fair, but bear in mind that my original point was that both Bellas would be discussed and criticised, and as I said I never expected an even split. Nikki was "by extension", not the crux of the matter, even way back in my original post.

So basically you guys overblew what I was talking about and now you've even forgotten what I originally said.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Well that's just a shitty thing to say that makes very little sense.

I even responded kindly to your earlier post.

Bro, you said thank you and proceeded to tell me that because I make shitty posts, you got frustrated and you reacted in different ways.
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Lopen posted...

I mean I even like Corrik but "these other people are doing it so it must be okay" is like his go to when he's making a dumb argument.

It's not that it's okay. It's that it's happening.

If you thought it wouldn't happen, you were very clearly wrong.
If you thought it happening was dumb, I said that already. I just don't care - people make dumb comparisons all the time, at least this one might lead to something honest.
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XIII_rocks posted...

RE Brie: I don't like hounding her over these errors, but I'm at least glad that they are getting people to rail against her (and, by extension) her sister, who are both incompetent relics who have been totally surpassed by the current crop.

I don't like witch hunts but there's at least the possible upside that the "Bellas have improved and are good now" myth gets exposed and destroyed.

XIII_rocks posted...

Again: people are dumb

Nikki might be better than Brie but to me they're both dumb and awful and bad actresses so I don't give a fuck if this anti-Brie sentiment also spills over into being an anti-Nikki thing by extension. That's great to me.

XIII_rocks posted...

Nikki is also hot garbage

I don't care to differentiate between them in the same way I don't care to differentiate between Kelly Kelly and fucking Rosa Mendes

Nikki might be better? Sure? I don't really care - she's still an impossible to believe character, a poor actress and a mediocre athlete with poor timing. Wildly incompetent, and WWE convincing anyone that they were worth anything is one of their greatest tricks this century.

XIII_rocks posted...

Everything Brie does affects Nikki and vice versa.

That's the price they pay for promoting their entire brand around their happy genetic accident. They have a show - shows - together, tag together, and generally come as a kind of package deal

Twin magic has its downsides. Don't blame me for that.

I mean your first post was about both and then the reply was "What does this have to do with Nikki" and then you made those other lovely posts which is what people started mocking, so...

Yes I realize I said I'd stop replying but I'm irrational, too. I just admit it.

Our original point was that it's dumb to say things like "I don't care to differentiate them and they deserve it because they're twins, that's not my problem it's theirs"

And then you just dug in
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

Well that's just a shitty thing to say that makes very little sense.

I even responded kindly to your earlier post.

Bro, you said thank you and proceeded to tell me that because I make shitty posts, you got frustrated and you reacted in different ways.

I didn't say "shitty", I said they were "a bit much". Please don't put words in my mouth even if you're spoiling for a fight.
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The crux of the matter is that you're saying something dumb and can't accept that maybe everyone thinking you're dumb on this matter, including people who agree that Nikki sucks, is an indictment of the merit of what you're saying. Just get over it, accept you're not being some sorta perfect analytical being when it comes to certain things and that it's not a matter of us not understanding what you're saying, and move on.

We understand what you're saying. We have mocked it accordingly. This isn't a matter of miscommunication here. Other people having the same reaction you do doesn't mean you're being rational-- it means people are irrational about a ton of things and it's going to vary from person to person, and if you're talking about something that's popular enough you'll always be able to find someone as silly as you are.
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I'm glad we might soon reach the day where the Superman Punch and, by extension, The Rock both get exposed for the mediocre relics they are
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If I was spoiling for a fight, I would have either replied to that post much sooner or would have replied to any of the flippant posts you've made to me over the years in multiple topics in a flippant way back to you.

As it stands, I don't care about fighting you and I certainly don't care if you like me or not. It's a message board. Lighten up, man.
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Like I mean, truth be told here, if AJ Lee won that APWT best women's wrestler poll in 2014 or whatever instead of Nikki Bella, I might be similarly irrational and cheering if I dunno more people started saying AJ Lee was a bad wrestler because CM Punk sucks at UFC. Because I think AJ Lee is super bad. Way worse than pretty much everyone does.

Though enough people tend to agree with me on my fundamental issues with her that I'm able to not end up being some nut about it. Probably because Nikki Bella is actually objectively better as a wrestler than AJ Lee but you know let's not go there cause that's not the point.
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I'm glad we might soon reach the day where Biscuit and, by extension, Pillsbury both get exposed for the mediocre relics they are
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Hoohoo
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