Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 457: Ticket Sales are Experiencing a Super Slow-Down

(+) Yeah! (+)

HashtagSEP posted...

Our original point was that it's dumb to say things like "I don't care to differentiate them and they deserve it because they're twins, that's not my problem it's theirs"

I know Nikki shouldn't be accountable for Brie's botches, but she will be to at least some limited extent because of the way they promote. That is a downside of their branding (ie when one suffers, both do).

I'd say the only post of mine there I regret the wording of is the Kelly/Rosa one because my meaning is unclear. When I said I don't care to differentiate between them I meant you obviously can, since Kelly is better than Rosa because she actually wrestled, but why on earth would I ever care to do that? If I wanted to get into a discussion about Nikki Bella as a wrestler vs. Brie, I could differentiate. I just don't care to get into a discussion where I differentiate between two bad wrestlers. In the same way you'll probably never see me discuss the comparative merits of two bad musicians.
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XIII_rocks posted...

I know Nikki shouldn't be accountable for Brie's botches, but she will be to at least some limited extent because of the way they promote. That is a downside of their branding (ie when one suffers, both do).

Theyre only branded that way on Raw though

On SD shes 100% branded as Bryans wife

Should her SD botches reflect similarly on Bryan?
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Daniel Bryan shouldn't have come back. After Brie botched that suicide dive and injured Liv, he's been such an unsafe worker.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

If I was spoiling for a fight, I would have either replied to that post much sooner or would have replied to any of the flippant posts you've made to me over the years in multiple topics in a flippant way back to you.

Doesn't really explain why you changed the manner of my response to cast me in a more negative light. If you were really fine, why even do that? Or were you just trying to justify further hostility? To, dare I say it, force negativity?
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XIII_rocks posted...

I know Nikki shouldn't be accountable for Brie's botches, but she will be to at least some limited extent because of the way they promote.

Right, but doing so is dumb. And cheering it on is especially dumb, whether you want to accept it or not.

We're going in circles.
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Jakyl25 posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

I know Nikki shouldn't be accountable for Brie's botches, but she will be to at least some limited extent because of the way they promote. That is a downside of their branding (ie when one suffers, both do).

Theyre only branded that way on Raw though

On SD shes 100% branded as Bryans wife

Should her SD botches reflect similarly on Bryan?

It's not really about should or shouldn't. It's about if they will or they won't. I've said repeatedly that this isn't about whether it's right for this to reflect on Nikki or for people to discuss Nikki as a result, it's whether or not it will happen. Evidently with Bryan it has not happened to my knowledge. Evidently with Nikki it has, a bit, from just a quick cursory search.
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The skill gap between Nikki and Brie is much larger than the skill gap between Kelly and Rosa.

That way of thinking is like me thinking Dragon Warrior is a 4/10 game, thinking Hydlide is a 1/10 game, and not being willing to discuss either one and trying to argue they're equally bad, and saying the stupid ass 70 character password system in Hydlide just shows how bad Dragon Warrior is, even though Dragon Warrior has a save game file and doesn't use passwords.

Kelly and Rosa are Hydlides. Being honest I'd probably say Brie is a bit better than a Hydlide but not enough that I care enough to split hairs on it. She's definitely not a Dragon Warrior.

Nikki is at worst a Dragon Warrior and probably slightly better than even that.
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XIII_rocks posted...

I've said repeatedly that this isn't about whether it's right for this to reflect on Nikki or for people to discuss Nikki as a result, it's whether or not it will happen

No, that's what you tried to backpedal it into. You were very much saying you were glad that it would reflect on Nikki to idiots from the beginning. Our problem was never "Will it happen or not," it was that you were admitting it happening was dumb/unfair, yet were still "Oh but this is great!" and not accepting how dumb that was.
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hearthstone topic: neverending argument over skill and luck
wrestling topic: early stages of neverending argument over bellas
smash topic: neverending argument over who's a mario
rest of the board: neverending arguments over politics

some days b8 ain't a very fun hobby
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We can reskin this argument into Hydlide vs Dragon Warrior if you want Tom I'm here for you.
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XIII_rocks posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

If I was spoiling for a fight, I would have either replied to that post much sooner or would have replied to any of the flippant posts you've made to me over the years in multiple topics in a flippant way back to you.

Doesn't really explain why you changed the manner of my response to cast me in a more negative light. If you were really fine, why even do that? Or were you just trying to justify further hostility? To, dare I say it, force negativity?

My point still stands, regaardless of the strength of the word I used. Because in that post, the only words that should have accompanied your post were "I'm sorry." I don't need to make you look more negative here. You do that well enough when you hit the Post Message button.
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sweet I don't know hydlide it'll be educational
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Tom Bombadil posted...

hearthstone topic: neverending argument over skill and luck
wrestling topic: early stages of neverending argument over bellas
smash topic: neverending argument over who's a mario
rest of the board: neverending arguments over politics

some days b8 ain't a very fun hobby

Theres always BABE BRAWL
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Tom Bombadil posted...

sweet I don't know hydlide it'll be educational

Oh god if you think B8 isnt fun...
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The first rule of Hydlide is that you can look but you can't touch, as running into things will kill you.
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As someone who hasn't been paying attention much, I noticed that they're making an all women PPV and then immediately following that up with a PPV in Saudi Arabia

...What a weird company
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Everyone only wants to see Ronda and Becky

Except the Saudis who want ONLY MEN

Serving both audiences
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It's not the early stages.

StealThisSheen posted...

No, that's what you tried to backpedal it into. You were very much saying you were glad that it would reflect on Nikki to idiots from the beginning. Our problem was never "Will it happen or not," it was that you were admitting it happening was dumb/unfair, yet were still "Oh but this is great!" and not accepting how dumb that was.

OK so if that's the true core of it, you've never really explained why that's dumb. I see it as a somewhat cynical, jaded view of how a conversation will go, while accentuating the silver lining - that Nikki will face the criticisms she escaped for a long time.

It's not dumb to look on the bright side of people's stupidity.

For instance: I completely get what Steph was trying to say with that idiotic philanthropy tweet. Most people here, if they're honest with themselves, know it wasn't as bad as it looked. The problem isn't really her meaning (reading the context of the quote it was nowhere near as bad as it seemed), it's that the optics of it to the average person are obviously terrible. And yet do you have a problem with using it as a stick with which to beat Stephanie? Because nobody else seems to.

An upside of people misinterpreting that tweet is that it throws Stephanie's competence as an executive into question, which is a good conversation to have, one that possibly needs to happen, even under a false pretense. Sound familiar?
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Lopen posted...

The first rule of Hydlide is that you can look but you can't touch, as running into things will kill you.

Its sort of a ridiculous game isnt it?
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What I get from this is that Becky Lynch needs to be criticized because the PPV that occurs after hers is held for an audience that likes The Rock and he's Reigns' family and Reigns is poopy

By extension, Reigns being poopy reflects very poorly on JBL and Cena

Edge too, since his biggest moment involved Cena

You don't even want to know how badly Christian, Matt Hardy and Lita look
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Jakyl25 posted...

Everyone only wants to see Ronda and Becky

Except the Saudis who want ONLY MEN

Serving both audiences

This oddly reminded me of something. When I stopped watching I realized it was because I want nobody. Because all WWE does is take things that people love like Rusev Day and Asuka and Face Becky and do everything they can to bury it and make it suck, while giving us shit we don't want.

I stopped watching because I know anything I want will be forcefully ruined by WWE. I would love to be excited for Asuka again, but at this PPV it seems like she'll be in a shitty tag match with Naomi against the Iconics, another pair who I loved before they ran one joke they did into the ground!
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

My point still stands, regardless of the strength of the word I used. Because in that post, the only words that should have accompanied your post were "I'm sorry." I don't need to make you look more negative here. You do that well enough when you hit the Post Message button.

It's not about making me look negative, that's not what I was saying. It's about your own negative mindset. That's what it's always been about with you.

Because you know what, god damn, now I think about it it actually does sum you up pretty well. I say something relatively innocuous, a small criticism you should be able to take on the chin ("your posts are a bit much" is nothing). You literally change what I say into a profane insult to justify another negative response, because negativity must always come first. That's vintage PB1. This all started because I said offhand that you had a tendency to "force negativity" and that's exactly what you did.
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Lopen posted...

... oh god Marty the Moth is the champion are you serious. Maybe I should just stop with Season 2.

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Eddv posted...

Lopen posted...

The first rule of Hydlide is that you can look but you can't touch, as running into things will kill you.

Its sort of a ridiculous game isnt it?

Only when we get to the second act when we realize that running into things is also how you kill them. Hydlide MC is probably a lot closer to Brie Bella than one would expect, frequently botching its offense and causing damage to themselves or unexpected extra damage to others.

I'm the rare person who has beaten Hydlide though so there is a sort of method to the madness. Still a 1/10 game though. Brie as the MC can't save it.
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Evolution (the faction) will REUNITE at SmackDown 1000

Surely to promote their namesake PPV
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VeryInsane posted...

As someone who hasn't been paying attention much, I noticed that they're making an all women PPV and then immediately following that up with a PPV in Saudi Arabia

...What a weird company

That is not a coincidence.
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Lopen posted...

This isn't a matter of miscommunication here. Other people having the same reaction you do doesn't mean you're being rational

How can you say there's no miscommunication and then demonstrate it in the same paragraph? How many times do I have to say that bringing Nikki into a discussion about Brie's botch was not my immediate reaction or something I think is particularly fair, but that it might result in something good? Those people don't share my reaction, they're simply evidence of what I said would happen, happening. That's been my point from the very start.

I was prepared to leave this to lie but you still don't get it.
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XIII_rocks posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

My point still stands, regardless of the strength of the word I used. Because in that post, the only words that should have accompanied your post were "I'm sorry." I don't need to make you look more negative here. You do that well enough when you hit the Post Message button.

It's not about making me look negative, that's not what I was saying. It's about your own negative mindset. That's what it's always been about with you.

Because you know what, god damn, now I think about it it actually does sum you up pretty well. I say something relatively innocuous, a small criticism you should be able to take on the chin ("your posts are a bit much" is nothing). You literally change what I say into a profane insult to justify another negative response, because negativity must always come first. That's vintage PB1. This all started because I said offhand that you had a tendency to "force negativity" and that's exactly what you did.

So are you just deliberately not getting it? You reply to posts I make out of nowhere in various topics for years with a shitty attitude, completely unprovoked, while I have never once insulted you and "took it on the chin" and you make a post justifying you treating someone in a shitty way because you didn't like their posts on a forum. I told you to find happiness because you are overtly negative almost any time I see you post, if not to someone else then in general.

But I should take an "innocuous" comment from a dude who hasn't had a single positive thing to say to me in years as a little bit of criticism. Own up to being a crappy person to me and then maybe we can talk. Otherwise I am perfectly content to keep "taking it on the chin" when it comes to you.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Lopen posted...

This isn't a matter of miscommunication here. Other people having the same reaction you do doesn't mean you're being rational

How can you say there's no miscommunication and then demonstrate it in the same paragraph? How many times do I have to say that bringing Nikki into a discussion about Brie's botch was not my immediate reaction or something I think is particularly fair, but that it might result in something good? Those people don't share my reaction, they're simply evidence of what I said would happen, happening. That's been my point from the very start.

I was prepared to leave this to lie but you still don't get it.

And just so we're clear, let me summarise this whole thing in one little paragraph. Didn't think I'd need to do it again but hey ho:

Brie's botch might open up a larger discussion about the incompetence of both Bellas, and I am absolutely fine with that, even though it's not super fair on Nikki, because the end justifies the means I guess.
That's it. That's my entire position. You might think it's harsh or dumb but I say knowing how people think, and how these conversations go, and accentuating the positive of that knowledge is...fine. It's not going to stop or change, but at least this time I get something out of it.

There. Done.
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We have now said the names Nikki and Brie Bella so many times that both names have lost all meaning to me
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Lopen posted...

I would find it significantly less embarrassing if like, it was just openly treated as "I have a bias and am okay with anything that brings public opinion of Nikki down. ANY MEANS NECESSARY." Like that's still kinda dumb but at least you're owning it.

From my second post on the topic of this dumb argument.

I get that's what you mean. We all get what you mean. But you're not owning it as something stupid to think. The idea that you dislike Nikki so much that even a non-sequitur to get people "HAVING A DISCOURSE" about reasons to be down on her is a good thing isn't something that should be respected, and instead trying to maintain some sort of analytical credibility here instead of just owning it as seething Nikki Bella hatred is why people are mocking you.
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Eddv posted...

We have now said the names Nikki and Brie Bella so many times that both names have lost all meaning to me

So this reminds me. My girlfriend's name is Nikki and whenever I want to annoy her, I'll just play this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWF3OpY7qLI" data-time="

Since, all of our friends will just shout COME ON NIKKI! at her when she needs encouragement.
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PB I'm gonna take this to PMs, I've filled this topic enough

Jakyl did you read my earlier post? I feel like it got a bit buried. I actually remembered your reaction to the Husky Harris thing as an example of what I'm talking about. Those people aren't great people, obviously, but they wouldn't specifically do that if WWE were worth a damn as a company. Do you agree or not?
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We have now said the names Nikki and Brie Bella so many times that I might actually be able to keep them straight
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XIII_rocks posted...

How many times do I have to say that bringing Nikki into a discussion about Brie's botch was not my immediate reaction or something I think is particularly fair, but that it might result in something good?

Also that's 100% a backpedal because that's literally what you did for the record. You brought Nikki into this not us. Like you didn't literally say "they're both botch machines" uhh good for you? But you did say "gosh I sure am glad Nikki is gonna get crucified too" and then reaffirmed you link them in your head with your followup that everyone made fun of you for.
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I agree with you that ultimately WWE is to blame for every dumbass fan reaction

The Husky Harris thing and the Iron Man buzzer thing only made me mad at the fans because they were screwing with something I wanted to enjoy. Theyre at fault for messing with my entertainment, but WWE is at fault for not entertaining them.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Theyre at fault for messing with my entertainment, but WWE is at fault for not entertaining them.

That's a pretty succinct capsulation of my issue too.

I will at this point likely not ever see another John Cena title match in person given his disposition and it had to be THAT one with THAT crowd reaction?

I mean yeah maybe WWE shouldnt have booked Orton/Cena 40 but I still wanted to enjoy it.
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Lopen posted...

Also that's 100% a backpedal because that's literally what you did for the record. You brought Nikki into this not us. Like you didn't literally say "they're both botch machines" uhh good for you? But you did say "gosh I sure am glad Nikki is gonna get crucified too" and then reaffirmed you link them in your head with your followup that everyone made fun of you for.

But we're not talking about their ability as wrestlers here. These are two separate things. This conversation we're having now is more about the posts I made yesterday. I "brought Nikki into this" because I said conversations about Brie's ability would include her. This is not one of the conversations I was talking about happening - it's more about me than it is the Bellas, for one thing - this is a conversation about future conversations. This was me talking about what might happen in future pro wrestling discourse, but it wasn't a part of it in itself. You even said it - Nikki is "going to get" crucified. Future tense. As in, I'm anticipating it happening, and not even by me. It wasn't "I'm crucifying Nikki", it's "she is going to get crucified". Your own words. There's no backpedal because I never said that I wanted to crucify Nikki over Brie's mistake - but I anticipated said crucifixion happening. By others.
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Holy crap you really are Corrik
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Are you going to keep misinterpreting my posts to cling to this delusion that you're a misunderstood understood brilliant man instead of a properly assessed irrational crackpot?

I mean look at that post you quoted. I didn't say "you're crucifying Nikki" for this. The literal quote, in the post you quoted of me quoting your thought process in quotation marks for you to plainly read, says "gosh I sure am glad Nikki is gonna get crucified too" which is awfully close to you correcting me with "she is going to get crucified".

And you're the one who brought her up to begin with, so that's you bringing her into the conversation, even if you, as a rational and highly advanced intellect, would be above directly reflecting Brie's botch directly on Nikki, you still think this is a good thing, and that is why people think you're a fool.
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I checked out of this discussion yesterday because I stopped caring but since it's still going on I feel compelled to make one more post and then probably never speak of the Bellas again.

My saying that both Brie and Nikki are terrible was not to insinuate that they are equally terrible. Nikki is better than Brie, yeah, but that has nothing to do with Nikki actually being good and everything to do with Brie being especially horrendous. But yes, at least Nikki isn't an active botch machine and hasn't (to my recollection) actually injured anyone. Nikki's just plain bad, Brie is dangerously bad.

Lopen, you also said something about how my standards are probably just higher and that if I put Nikki under my threshold of "good" I'd have to do the same for 80% of the other main roster women's workers. And I do. The only main roster women I consider actively good are Becky and Asuka. But there's a tier right underneath that one of women I'd consider "fine" (Bayley, Charlotte, Sarah Logan, Sasha with the right opponent, maybe Mickie and Natayla on a good day?), and Nikki doesn't hit that threshold either.

Now, yes, to be fair, I do admit that I no longer watch WWE main roster women's wrestling because I don't watch ANY main roster wrestling. So if some of these women have improved in the last two-three years, I wouldn't be able to speak on that. But people were already calling Nikki good when I was still watching, as evidence by the fact that she won the APWT award back then. And she's taken so much time off since then that I find it hard to believe she's magically smoothed out all her considerable rough edges. Historically, wrestlers don't get better through not wrestling. Maybe she's stopped slapping her legs on moves that miss, I guess? That would be a nice step in the right direction.

Anyway, now I'm done. No more Bella discussion for me.
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NBIceman posted...

Lopen, you also said something about how my standards are probably just higher and that if I put Nikki under my threshold of "good" I'd have to do the same for 80% of the other main roster women's workers. And I do. The only main roster women I consider actively good are Becky and Asuka. But there's a tier right underneath that one of women I'd consider "fine" (Bayley, Charlotte, Sarah Logan, Sasha with the right opponent, maybe Mickie and Natayla on a good day?), and Nikki doesn't hit that threshold either.

I respect this for the record. I disagree on where you place a lot of them, Sarah Logan in particular being notable is a headscratcher, but yeah. The mindset is fine to me.
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Also Nikki only won the woman wrestler of the year by basically default because it was a horrible situation for WWE women's wrestling and LOL non WWE winning anything back then.

She definitely didn't deserve it then. I mean she was the best WWE had but a random girl from STARDOM or something that had a good year should've won it. I only supported Nikki that year because I was realistic about who would get votes (pretty sure my #2 and #3 were Meiko Satomura and Io Shirai) and "she's a hell of a lot better than AJ Lee"

She's better than she was in 2014 in any case. Still not crossing the plane for what I'd call "good" with confidence (she's currently in my "decent" tier in that I feel she could have a good match with the right opponent, which is far better than I would humor for Brie or probably half the women's division as it is) but she has kept improving.
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Lopen posted...

NBIceman posted...

Lopen, you also said something about how my standards are probably just higher and that if I put Nikki under my threshold of "good" I'd have to do the same for 80% of the other main roster women's workers. And I do. The only main roster women I consider actively good are Becky and Asuka. But there's a tier right underneath that one of women I'd consider "fine" (Bayley, Charlotte, Sarah Logan, Sasha with the right opponent, maybe Mickie and Natayla on a good day?), and Nikki doesn't hit that threshold either.

I respect this for the record. I disagree on where you place a lot of them, Sarah Logan in particular being notable is a headscratcher, but yeah. The mindset is fine to me.

Logan is someone I saw wrestle on the indies quite a bit so that's what I'm judging on. It's entirely possible that the quality of opponent there made her look better than she was and she's now been exposed. I never really saw her work against average wrestlers; they were either really great or really bad.
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Lopen posted...

Are you going to keep misinterpreting my posts to cling to this delusion that you're a misunderstood understood brilliant man instead of a properly assessed irrational crackpot?

I mean look at that post you quoted. I didn't say "you're crucifying Nikki" for this. The literal quote, in the post you quoted of me quoting your thought process in quotation marks for you to plainly read, says "gosh I sure am glad Nikki is gonna get crucified too" which is awfully close to you correcting me with "she is going to get crucified".

And you're the one who brought her up to begin with, so that's you bringing her into the conversation, even if you, as a rational and highly advanced intellect, would be above directly reflecting Brie's botch directly on Nikki

OK well firstly language like in your first paragraph there isn't helping anybody. We should be looking to de-escalate this by now. Calling me an irrational crackpot because you disagree with how I think about the way people discuss things is wildly over the top, just like the idea that I'm a misunderstood genius is wildly over the top.

But I brought her into this conversation, yeah. I could go into Final Fantasy: Brave Exvius Topic 50 - A Hyoh New World and bring her into the conversation there, too. Talk about how she plays that or something, idk. It wouldn't matter. Just talking about Nikki Bella doesn't matter. Talking about Nikki in that topic wouldn't be me using Brie's botch as an excuse to attack Nikki, and that's not what I was doing here either - because we are not really discussing the ability of the Bella twins at the moment. We're discussing me, whether or not my stance is correct or justifiable. I didn't bring Nikki into this to attack her for Brie's botch. I brought her into this to mention how Brie's botch might lead to them being attacked as a pair by others and how I'm fine with that. They're two separate things entirely, so you can take back that "backpedal" accusation anytime you want.

(It could be argued that the person who truly brought Nikki into this, and what made it more about her than Brie, was you leaping to her defence. I made a comment about both of them together and you could have just let that lie.)

you still think this is a good thing, and that is why people think you're a fool.

OK, so once again, if this is the true crux of the matter let's leave everything else behind, what I said, what you said, shuffling words around, etc. You don't even have to take back the "backpedal" thing. Let's only focus on this and not the other stuff because if the only real argument is "you're a fool to think this is a good thing" "no I'm not", all we're doing is overcomplicating and inflating by bringing in anything else.

So I gave a rebuttal to this idea in post 319:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77035590/909623005

If you have a counter to what I said there, let's hear it.
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I am very fond of bringing up things and pointing out what I think about something that isn't affected by those things and talking about how those things having happened will help make people agree with me
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XIII_rocks posted...

So I gave a rebuttal to this idea in post 319:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77035590/909623005

If you have a counter to what I said there, let's hear it.

That's a piss poor example that I ignored because the example you're using is referring to one person. In what world does judging one person based on a tweet they made seem like a good example to counter using something one person did to attack a completely different individual?

The "stick" in that example is Stephanie's own tweet. Stephanie's tweet -> Stephanie obviously isn't a huge leap.

The "stick" in what we're discussing is Brie's botching. Brie's botches -> Nikki

Not the same thing at all.
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NBIceman posted...

Lopen posted...

NBIceman posted...

Lopen, you also said something about how my standards are probably just higher and that if I put Nikki under my threshold of "good" I'd have to do the same for 80% of the other main roster women's workers. And I do. The only main roster women I consider actively good are Becky and Asuka. But there's a tier right underneath that one of women I'd consider "fine" (Bayley, Charlotte, Sarah Logan, Sasha with the right opponent, maybe Mickie and Natayla on a good day?), and Nikki doesn't hit that threshold either.

I respect this for the record. I disagree on where you place a lot of them, Sarah Logan in particular being notable is a headscratcher, but yeah. The mindset is fine to me.

Logan is someone I saw wrestle on the indies quite a bit so that's what I'm judging on. It's entirely possible that the quality of opponent there made her look better than she was and she's now been exposed. I never really saw her work against average wrestlers; they were either really great or really bad.

No love for Athena?

EDIT: Or Heidi Lovelace?
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Saw Athena work a TON on the indies since she was primarily based in Texas. It's hard for me to definitively say how good I think she is because her stuff ranged from legitimate greatness to some of the worst matches I've seen in my entire life. She is heavily, heavily dependent on the quality of her opponent in my eyes.

I never really got into Heidi Lovelace. She's one of those wrestlers that everyone has where you recognize they have talent to a varying extent but just don't connect with you. So, again, hard to judge.
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Yeah my only exposure to Athena pre-Ember Moon was a **** hardcore match with LuFisto, someone who could easily be making her opponent look great. But it made me hyped for her going to WWE!
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