Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 457: Ticket Sales are Experiencing a Super Slow-Down

(+) Yeah! (+)

Again: people are dumb

Nikki might be better than Brie but to me they're both dumb and awful and bad actresses so I don't give a fuck if this anti-Brie sentiment also spills over into being an anti-Nikki thing by extension. That's great to me.
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I mean, I zone out for Bella matches, too. I zone out for most women's matches unless it's a title match at a PPV because they're just not good anymore. And I don't think Nikki is that good. "Solid" is a fair word to use.

But I do think it's really fucking stupid to admit to being irrational and "They're twins and market it so I'm going to treat them the exact same and am glad other people do" and think it's even more really fucking stupid to like, be proud of that and admit it.
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Like say I claimed Naomi and Cameron were similar quality wrestlers

You'd probably claim I was racist or that I haven't paid attention to either one since they were Funkadactyls.

Naomi not being very good either doesn't really change that she's still leagues ahead of Cameron.
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I still have difficulty figuring out which one's Dawson and which one's Dash.
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I always had trouble telling which one was American and which one was Alpha
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XIII_rocks posted...

Again: people are dumb

Nikki might be better than Brie but to me they're both dumb and awful and bad actresses so I don't give a fuck if this anti-Brie sentiment also spills over into being an anti-Nikki thing by extension. That's great to me.

I feel like this is the sort of cynicism you usually rail against
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I have no idea who's The and who's Ascension. Which one beat Chad Gable?
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Wait, which one's Gable and which one's Chad?
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Like Nikki was women's champ for a fucking year, I obviously watched that garbage. So of course I can differentiate. But the difference is really not that pronounced in terms of entertainment factor: two poor, non-wrestler, actresses thoroughly left behind by their far greater next generation.

It might be slightly "unfair" to Nikki, but putting her on Brie's shitty level in terms of entertainment provided doesn't really make much difference to me.

So basically my stance is this: It's not quite correct to lump her and Brie together as one, no. But it's way better than the current myth that either one of them is worth a damn in the ring or on the mic. So if Nikki gets tanked by Brie's stupidity then sure. That lie is better, closer to the truth, than the current lie.
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So, basically, I shouldn't take any argument you make seriously ever again since you admit to being biased and irrational

Cool thanks
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I could never tell which member of the Harlem Heat was Hulk and which one was Hogan.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I could never tell which member of the Harlem Heat was Hulk and which one was Hogan.

Hogan has heroes... But Hulk is a hero


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HashtagSEP posted...

So, basically, I shouldn't take any argument you make seriously ever again since you admit to being biased and irrational

Cool thanks

I never made an argument here.

I stated my position (since both are garbage and people lump them together, Brie's incompetence affects Nikki's and tanks them both, which I'm all for). I'm actually glad I had the chance to properly clarify it.

I'm not admitting my own non-existent irrationality. I'm admitting that the irrationality of others may help to bring general consensus closer to the truth. In this case, an irrational grouping of Nikki with Brie brings them both down to a more appropriate level of praise, helping us to move away from the weird idea that Nikki is worth anything.
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XIII_rocks posted...

non-existent irrationality.

Okay
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Seems like you've just settled in to your own misguided view here. Nothing you've said shows you understand where I'm coming from.
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I think whether you think Nikki is a decent wrestler basically boils down to your standards

I just think if you put Nikki well under that line you need to put about 80% of the women's division under the line as well.

For a snob like NBIceman it's actually internally consistent to treat em as indistinguishable since he actually knows what good women's wrestling looks like, has lower tolerance for the lower tier stuff, and probably doesn't even watch WWE women's matches at all. It's still wrong, but it's wrong in a way I can understand at least.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Nikki might be better than Brie but to me they're both dumb and awful and bad actresses so I don't give a fuck if this anti-Brie sentiment also spills over into being an anti-Nikki thing by extension. That's great to me.

That's not exactly "non-existent irrationality"
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How? I think it tracks very logically and rationally.

Let me explain:

Nikki is believed, for some reason, to be competent. To me this is a weird horseshit combination of Stockholm Syndrome, good press and her romance with Cena (who is no longer the smark enemy he once was). She's still bad, so her receiving praise is a huge falsehood.

Brie (apparently universally accepted as bad?) does some stupid shit. People jump on an anti-Bella train. This by extension affects Nikki to some degree (again, due to their own branding) because people cba to differentiate. Nikki then begins to get the criticism she has escaped for literal years.

So as a result, both Bellas are bad and get treated as bad. This may not happen for the right reasons, but that's better than nothing. It's a falsehood, yes. But to me the falsehood that either one of them is good is much more egregious.
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I think it's time to admit that every time I see Reigns throw a Superman Punch, I find myself less and less willing to ever watch a Seth Rollins match again
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I never realized Nikki was even seen as passable. I mean she's nowhere near the standards of even just the better WWE females

Panthera posted...

I think it's time to admit that every time I see Reigns throw a Superman Punch, I find myself less and less willing to ever watch a Seth Rollins match again

But they're not related!

You must be thinking of Tama Tonga.
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Is Tama Tonga related to Seth Rollins or Roman Reigns? Because he looks like both.
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Uh the Shield has called each other brothers on multiple occasions

So anything Roman does counts for Rollins and Ambrose
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ShatteredElysium posted...

I never realized Nikki was even seen as passable. I mean she's nowhere near the standards of even just the better WWE females

I know, right? This shit started like...idk when AJ Lee was champ and was then exacerbated by Nikki's long reign. Proper Stockholm Syndrome shit.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Is Tama Tonga related to Seth Rollins or Roman Reigns? Because he looks like both.

There is no proof that he is, but I have my theories.
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Take a shot every time a Shield segment includes the word "brother" in it.

The only women on the main roster I'd put as definitively above Nikki's level are Charlotte, Asuka, Mickie, Becky and Natalya. I'm not saying she's the 6th best on the roster, just that the ones below those 5 it becomes at least worthy of debating.

If that's a condemnation of the WWE women's division or praise of Nikki your pick I don't really care. I'm not going to die defending anyone I didn't list as a particularly good wrestler. I do think the majority of the WWE women's division, Nikki included, is at least watchable at this point though. Like I'm not going to be excited to watch most of them have a match but they're not going to kill the show either, and most of them can be carried to a good match if stuck with one of the good ones.

Brie I'd probably stick another 10 or so women as definitively better. Like I just don't really think they're on the same tier. Whether that's bad to super bad or meh to super bad is up to interpretation.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Uh the Shield has called each other brothers on multiple occasions

So anything Roman does counts for Rollins and Ambrose

I'm a little confused about your approach to this.

During the argument about WWE going to Saudi, you repeatedly said that you never wanted WWE to stage a grand protest, that they just shouldn't go, and that I was deliberately misinterpreting your point. Fine. But how are these shitposts of yours any different? Either admit you don't understand what I'm saying so I can put it in more simple terms, or admit you do and tell me why I'm wrong. Not this silly strawman stuff.
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Best I understand it you revel in Nikki getting criticism for no real reason because you feel she's overrated.

You also say you're justified in thinking this because

XIII_rocks posted...

Everything Brie does affects Nikki and vice versa.

That's the price they pay for promoting their entire brand around their happy genetic accident. They have a show - shows - together, tag together, and generally come as a kind of package deal

Twin magic has its downsides. Don't blame me for that.

And are rightly mocked for it. I don't think anyone is particularly interested in your opinion on it and would rather mock you instead because it's pretty much just really stupid looking on its face.
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See above post
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Like, you think Nikki is overrated. That's fine.

But to go "I'm so glad Brie botched because now people are hating on Brie AND Nikki and Nikki deserves it because they're twins and I don't like her so since I don't like her I'm all for unfair criticism"

is really, really stupid and not deserving of actual response. And, as Jakyl pointed out, it's typically the type of thing you go against in other cases, so it's pretty hypocritical.

You admit that to use Brie botching as an excuse to hate on Nikki just because they're twins is irrational. Yet, for some reason, you don't think it's dumb or irrational to cheer it on.
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I would find it significantly less embarrassing if like, it was just openly treated as "I have a bias and am okay with anything that brings public opinion of Nikki down. ANY MEANS NECESSARY." Like that's still kinda dumb but at least you're owning it.

But it's like, you're trying to argue this, being delusional enough to think what you're saying is a good argument and claim it's not irrational and shit, asking for counterpoints, claiming what you're saying is something profound that we can't understand. Like what?

Even the dude who is captain of the Bella hate brigade, APWT division, is like "nope outta here" when you dropped that one
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Firstly, do you have any specific examples of me railing against said cynicism? Otherwise it's just a lazy parroting of Jakyl's point. I feel like he was talking about my tendency to defend the WWE in this topic from the forced, desperate negativity of, say, PrivateBiscuit, but I fully turned on WWE as a company almost a year ago. That's not hypocrisy, that's a change in mindset.

StealThisSheen posted...

Like, you think Nikki is overrated. That's fine.

But to go "I'm so glad Brie botched because now people are hating on Brie AND Nikki and Nikki deserves it because they're twins and I don't like her so since I don't like her I'm all for unfair criticism"

is really, really stupid and not deserving of actual response. And, as Jakyl pointed out, it's typically the type of thing you go against in other cases, so it's pretty hypocritical.

You admit that to use Brie botching as an excuse to hate on Nikki just because they're twins is irrational. Yet, for some reason, you don't think it's dumb or irrational to cheer it on.

And this is why I wanted more, because I felt stuff had been misinterpreted, and I was right. Maybe that's on me for not effectively clarifying, or maybe it's on you for jumping to conclusions. Or deliberately doing so to justify the aforementioned shitposts.

So let's clear up the these low, possibly deliberate misinterpretations right now.

First: I never claimed I was happy Brie legitimately KO'd someone. I said the upside of Brie's recent mistakes is that they might bring their twin incompetence back into general discussion. That isn't the same as being glad she gave someone a concussion. Think you need to take that one back.

Second: I never said I'm using Brie's botches to hate on Nikki. I hate on Nikki regardless. I'm annoyed by the shift in discourse towards the idea that Nikki is good, so if this is a catalyst to shift discussion back towards a more anti-Bella vibe, then let's do it.

I see it as more of a starting point, a catalyst, like I said. Because the inevitable counter to Nikki hate here would be "you shouldn't blame Nikki for Brie's botches" (as immediately happened in this topic), you then see people get into more specific discussions about Nikki's ability beyond her sister's botches. People who were previously ambivalent about the subject are now bedded in to the discussion, making anti-Bella points, influencing people and shifting the discourse, where previously they wouldn't be (or would be doing so far less). That "irrational" catalyst morphs into rational discussion.

I'm guilty of allowing the discourse to shift as well. I never really cared enough to dispute Lopen's assertions that Nikki was good; I read them and scoffed or shook my head and moved on. You sometimes need a catalyst to get people into a discussion like that, even if the catalyst is a bit nonsensical or irrational. I want this to be that catalyst. Let's use these incidents as a springboard to get talking about how bad the Bellas, both Bellas, truly are, and how bad it truly is that they are once again being heavily pushed and promoted.
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Saw night school

Preview had a new ferrel and Ridley sherlock Holmes movie

Braun is in it
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Ah I see the topic of former APWT Woman Wrestler of the Year Winner Nikki Bella
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Jakyl25 posted...

XIII_rocks posted...

Again: people are dumb

Nikki might be better than Brie but to me they're both dumb and awful and bad actresses so I don't give a fuck if this anti-Brie sentiment also spills over into being an anti-Nikki thing by extension. That's great to me.

I feel like this is the sort of cynicism you usually rail against

Not only is this the same cynicism he rails against, he rails against much less ridiculous posts than the ones he's made, usually out of nowhere and much more flippantly than people are treating him right now. Not exclusive to this topic.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Firstly, do you have any specific examples of me railing against said cynicism? Otherwise it's just a lazy parroting of Jakyl's point. I feel like he was talking about my tendency to defend the WWE in this topic from the forced, desperate negativity of, say, PrivateBiscuit, but I fully turned on WWE as a company almost a year ago. That's not hypocrisy, that's a change in mindset.

Oh, I didn't even realize you gave me a shout-out too. Would've been nice of you to @ me so I could tell you my opinion on this in real time. But it's better you didn't because I can give a much nicer response than anything you would have ever given to me in any situation ever: I hope you find happiness XIII. I really do.
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Thanks man that's sweet of you

I don't personally dislike you, btw, I just find your posts here a bit much. Over several years this begins to get frustrating and manifests itself in various different ways.
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Lopen posted...

"I have a bias and am okay with anything that brings public opinion of Nikki down. ANY MEANS NECESSARY."

granted I am only skimming this but I thought that WAS what he was saying
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XIII_rocks posted...

I fully turned on WWE as a company almost a year ago. That's not hypocrisy, that's a change in mindset.

I missed this! What happened to break you?
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I'm glad Brie's botches will make the misguided peons hate the women's division as a whole mwahahaha damn it make those superman punches stop already Ambrose
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Lopen posted...

"I have a bias and am okay with anything that brings public opinion of Nikki down. ANY MEANS NECESSARY."

granted I am only skimming this but I thought that WAS what he was saying

That's what I thought but then he tried to claim he had some big point that I was missing and that his stance wasn't irrational, so I just clocked out on it.

Like, if he just wants to admit that's what he wants, I'm more than fine with it. But trying to flavor it up with "I want this to cause discussion" is pretty dumb because that very much wasn't how he came off originally.
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XIII_rocks posted...

Second: I never said I'm using Brie's botches to hate on Nikki. I hate on Nikki regardless. I'm annoyed by the shift in discourse towards the idea that Nikki is good, so if this is a catalyst to shift discussion back towards a more anti-Bella vibe, then let's do it.

I see it as more of a starting point, a catalyst, like I said. Because the inevitable counter to Nikki hate here would be "you shouldn't blame Nikki for Brie's botches" (as immediately happened in this topic), you then see people get into more specific discussions about Nikki's ability beyond her sister's botches. People who were previously ambivalent about the subject are now bedded in to the discussion, making anti-Bella points, influencing people and shifting the discourse, where previously they wouldn't be (or would be doing so far less). That "irrational" catalyst morphs into rational discussion.

I'm guilty of allowing the discourse to shift as well. I never really cared enough to dispute Lopen's assertions that Nikki was good; I read them and scoffed or shook my head and moved on. You sometimes need a catalyst to get people into a discussion like that, even if the catalyst is a bit nonsensical or irrational. I want this to be that catalyst. Let's use these incidents as a springboard to get talking about how bad the Bellas, both Bellas, truly are, and how bad it truly is that they are once again being heavily pushed and promoted.

How is this not "I want this unrelated incident from a completely different person to morph into talking about how somebody else is bad" and how is this not an irrational response? You're basically a vulture looking to pick pieces off of a carcass that nobody actually cares about. Nobody's sitting here arguing Nikki is a great wrestler, or even that good of one. A few of us said she's fine/solid/whatever, and that somehow threw you onto this tangent. You're not okay with people not thinking she's a horrible plight on WWE, and so you hope a botch by Brie somehow gets people saying "See? Nikki sucks!"

That. Is. Irrational.

And it's why people are mocking you.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

granted I am only skimming this but I thought that WAS what he was saying

It's what he's saying but instead of "I have a bias" it's "I am objectively right she is a bad wrestler, and it makes sense to let Brie's actions change public opinion on Nikki because branding, only it doesn't actually because that does kinda sound stupid doesn't it let me give you a wall of text detailing how you misunderstood what I meant, peon, instead of just moving on. Mmhmm, discourse, catalyst, intelligent words! Mhm! *thrash thrash* *blub blub blub*"
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I've just gotta vent a little bit right now:

Lucha Underground sucks right now. Everything I liked about the show is slowly seeping away, and it's being replaced by this dull flan-like WWE-think. I don't want to watch Jack Swagger in a Lucha company. I don't want to see virtually every guy on Impact on LU. I don't want these storylines with curosry week WWE builds. That's not why I watched the show.

This last week really was just so damned irritating that it made me consider dropping the show. The lack of any real build for the Ultima Lucha main event is very disheartening, and interference by Fenix in this going-nowhere Melissa Santos storyline has pretty much killed my interest in his character. Sacrificing Jack Evans was such an ugly, pointless dispensation of an actual lucha talent, and the Trios division definitely feels like a batch of also-rans, especially with the current even more bland Rabbit Tribe returning. The stories all feel like they're trying to capture the nonsensical worst-of hits that come out of both Impact at its nadir and WWE in its least watchable. For me, that all gloms together with a cherry on top of a lack of Dario for reasons as to which I cannot even begin to fathom.

It's such a far cry from what made the show so great years ago.
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It was never a sustainable brand
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It's virtually the same people, and I'm only talking about the writing and wrestling content. If you want to play make-believe businessman about it, that's fine, but it really doesn't track with my points. You can be an unsustainable brand and have great writing. That's what 205 Live is.
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I do mean from a writing standpoint

If you craft a fantastical universe like that, there is going to have to be creative burnout as you constantly feel like you have to one-up yourself

Each season should have a fresh main writer
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Yeah I don't buy that for a second and my source is comic books, where oneupmanship is what caused quality to tank because fans wanted emotionally intense story arcs primarily. I think the same is true of wrestling, even in supernaturally-grounded story arcs. The universe itself is predicated primarily on the notion of being an illegal underground fighting ring, and it gave up on that part of its world completely. THAT'S where the mistake came.
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I have not watched the newest season of Lucha Underground after loving the previous ones because I kind of figured it was going to be a death knell and not what I'm looking for anymore.
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