Board 8 > Smash Bros Ultimate General Discussion 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

scarletspeed7 posted...

I don't think hype in a series necessarily translates to hype outside of that series.

Good point. Non-Kirby fans don't give a flying fuck about Adeleine.
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Kenri posted...

https://imgur.com/6JkFucL

Imagine this being the last thing you see before you die.

Yes, I chose the correct belief system
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bwburke94 posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

I don't think hype in a series necessarily translates to hype outside of that series.

Good point. Non-Kirby fans don't give a flying fuck about Adeleine.

But you could say this about almost every character. Non-Zelda fans don't give a fuck about Link.
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As a follow-up to myself, that's why I think Master Hand or Tabuu should get AT status at least. Because Smash players will appreciate Smash-related content. It's honestly more important than the 15th rep from Pokemon or whatever.
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mnkboy907 posted...

bwburke94 posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

I don't think hype in a series necessarily translates to hype outside of that series.

Good point. Non-Kirby fans don't give a flying fuck about Adeleine.

But you could say this about almost every character. Non-Zelda fans don't give a fuck about Link.

Casuals care more about major characters than minor characters.
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Master Hand and Tabuu have a much stronger chance at appearing as bosses now that they've shown Dracula / Rathalos as bosses with an actual boss stage to go with it.
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I would say more people care about Adeleine than Hector.
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I'd be pretty happy with either one of Adeleine/Hector!

I'd also like to see more Smash-specific content. Heck, I feel like Tabuu could even be a PC with enough elbow grease. I'd LIKE Master Hand- probably too weird to be done, but I fried my first copy of SSB trying to get him via gameshark. You could even do Metal Mario (okay so he's from Mario but shut up) or Fighting Polygon/Wireframe if you got creative enough with balance!
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Wire Frame would be a great throwback character. I just worry that the moveset is too dull. I, personally, feel like at this point, either new characters have to be drawing stars or very unique. That's the impression I get from the way the roster has developed the last couple games.
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I mean I love Pokemon and will always want new Pokemon but I am totally willing to sacrifice a new one for more goofy fucks like K Rool and the like
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Tokoyami posted...

Also that's kind of giving off a vibe of "no shut up though fire emblem is popular" and not taking into account other series'

Which to be fair you did say it might sound bad

Fire Emblem just has more options because of the way the series is built, like all of the character here are either main or major characters and we are still have a long way to go before we get to the point where we are adding "Random Teammate D" while for series like Zelda and Kirby that pool is shallow.
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Just because Fire Emblem has all the options doesnt mean it needs to use all of them lol
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And they aren't, the roster is pretty slim for the series.
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I'm not even sure Nintendo has any more big names not yet in the game. King K. Rool and Ridley were some of the last two, and King K. Rool is kind of pushing it. Besides pokemon, does anyone beat Waluigi?
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charmander6000 posted...

while for series like Zelda and Kirby that pool is shallow.

I would disagree that Zelda has a shallow pool. Hyrule Warriors didn't even hit all of the interesting potential playable characters and that was before Breath of the Wild.
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I for one, would be ecstatic if Marx got in since he's the final boss of Super Star, which is Sakurai's Best Kirby game.

He's not even an assist trophy.
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Anagram posted...

I'm not even sure Nintendo has any more big names not yet in the game. King K. Rool and Ridley were some of the last two, and King K. Rool is kind of pushing it. Besides pokemon, does anyone beat Waluigi?

Paper Mario
Toad/Captain Toad (and it would have to be the Captain considering Peach and Daisy still have regular Toad as a move)
Geno
Dixie Kong

I'd argue that those first two are probably above Waluigi. Paper Mario already has his own stage and Mario RPGs totally need representation. Geno would be a cool rep too, being a fan favorite and all, but Paper Mario is a long-running Nintendo series and Super Mario RPG is not.
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For interest, here is the fan requests before Brawl came out. While a lot of new characters have appeared since then (cross your fingers for Alinatron), it can still serve as insight into what could be possible:

https://smashboards.com/threads/characters-on-sakurais-poll.71872/
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I think the thing with Fire Emblem vs Kirby is like

Fans of just Kirby would rather see the Kirby character, fans of just Fire Emblem would rather see the Fire Emblem character, and fans of both are going to prefer the Fire Emblem character, and that's generally going to be true no matter how many Fire Emblem characters you put in.

And that's going to be true for second string Fire Emblem vs second string of pretty much any series that's in the game right now, because Fire Emblem is just a more character driven game with more focus put on those side characters.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. Once you're in the second string you've pretty much spent the "casual who is just excited about the mainstream offerings." Series diversity only matters if you're deficient in the non-repped series. Trying to keep everyone perfectly even, or in descending order of series popularity, by shoehorning minor characters in from series like Kirby or Metroid where the fanbase itself hardly cares, it's largely a waste of effort.

My only issue with Fire Emblem is too many of the characters could just be Marth Echoes and you wouldn't know the difference. Get some axe users or archers in there. Like Robin is an awesome character cause she actually does different stuff as opposed to almost every other Fire Emblem character in the game.
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StartTheMachine posted...

Paper Mario
Toad/Captain Toad (and it would have to be the Captain considering Peach and Daisy still have regular Toad as a move)
Geno
Dixie Kong

I'd argue that those first two are probably above Waluigi. Paper Mario already has his own stage and Mario RPGs totally need representation. Geno would be a cool rep too, being a fan favorite and all, but Paper Mario is a long-running Nintendo series and Super Mario RPG is not.

Paper Mario maybe, but the others aren't as famous or popular.

And knowing Nintendo, a Paper Mario inclusion would have sticker and paint-based powers instead of being based on the good games.
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Anagram posted...

And knowing Nintendo, a Paper Mario inclusion would have sticker and paint-based powers instead of being based on the good games.

The only thing that matters about the old games in terms of a moveset is the dodge.
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Anagram posted...

StartTheMachine posted...

Paper Mario
Toad/Captain Toad (and it would have to be the Captain considering Peach and Daisy still have regular Toad as a move)
Geno
Dixie Kong

I'd argue that those first two are probably above Waluigi. Paper Mario already has his own stage and Mario RPGs totally need representation. Geno would be a cool rep too, being a fan favorite and all, but Paper Mario is a long-running Nintendo series and Super Mario RPG is not.

Paper Mario maybe, but the others aren't as famous or popular.

And knowing Nintendo, a Paper Mario inclusion would have sticker and paint-based powers instead of being based on the good games.

Yeah, Waluigi should certainly be a priority over the last two but uhhhh, Toad has literally been in Mario since SMB 1! I'd say he's pretty famous.
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I don't count Toad since he's in as a Peach move, I was counting Captain Toad.
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Makes sense. I kind of wish they would just give Peach a new neutral B and put Toad in as an echo of Captain Toad, or vice versa. But I kind of think Captain Toad should be the main since he's just a Toad with more personality! And his own series.
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Captain Toad would be great, but he's already in the New Donk City stage

Toad definitely deserves to be in though.
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Isnt Toon Link in the Spirit Tracks stage?
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Grand Kirby posted...

Captain Toad would be great, but he's already in the New Donk City stage

wait he is!?

no no no noooo I was thinking he was almost a certainty

Edit: Oh so this is interesting.

Before Smash 4 was released, Sakurai posted updates on Miiverse. One of them included the train stage from the 3DS and Sakurai said something along the lines of When Link or Toon link are in the battle, Alfonzo will take over and it bamboozled people who thought Toon Link was gonna be cut because he was a part of the stage.

So yeah, Captain Toad could totally just not show up at all in New Donk City if someone is playing as him. Or he could be replaced by like, a random Broodal in the background instead.
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StartTheMachine posted...

So yeah, Captain Toad could totally just not show up at all in New Donk City if someone is playing as him. Or he could be replaced by like, a random Broodal in the background instead.

Or Toadette, the other actual playable character from the same game!
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Tom Bombadil posted...

I'd also like to see more Smash-specific content. Heck, I feel like Tabuu could even be a PC with enough elbow grease. I'd LIKE Master Hand- probably too weird to be done, but I fried my first copy of SSB trying to get him via gameshark. You could even do Metal Mario (okay so he's from Mario but shut up) or Fighting Polygon/Wireframe if you got creative enough with balance!

Playable Master Hand would be cool.

I'd be pretty happy if they never acknowledged Tabuu ever again though.
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Lopen posted...

My only issue with Fire Emblem is too many of the characters could just be Marth Echoes and you wouldn't know the difference. Get some axe users or archers in there. Like Robin is an awesome character cause she actually does different stuff as opposed to almost every other Fire Emblem character in the game.

I would dispute this. There's:

Marth - Lucina
Roy - Chrom
Robin
Ike
Corrin

Marth, Ike, Robin, and Corrin all have very distinct playstyles. Marth and Roy were a lot more similar in Melee than they are now - Roy has some major differences that entirely change his playstyle when compared to Marth (also makes him way worse, oops). Lucina and Chrom, yeah, they're the Echoes. The only commonality is that they all have swords, but like, how many people in the cast just punch people?

I think the samey-ness of Fire Emblem characters to some people isn't in their playstyle so much as it is their aesthetics. The other sword users in the game have more distinctive visual appearances, which makes the Fire Emblem crew less appealing to some people who don't know them in detail.
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Roy may have distinctions from Marth, but he's still clearly a Marth clone. Four of the FE characters are extremely similar. At least Ike, Robin, and Corrin are all distinct.
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Kenri posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

I'd also like to see more Smash-specific content. Heck, I feel like Tabuu could even be a PC with enough elbow grease. I'd LIKE Master Hand- probably too weird to be done, but I fried my first copy of SSB trying to get him via gameshark. You could even do Metal Mario (okay so he's from Mario but shut up) or Fighting Polygon/Wireframe if you got creative enough with balance!

Playable Master Hand would be cool.

I'd be pretty happy if they never acknowledged Tabuu ever again though.

why
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Because it would be taboo.
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Honestly even Ike has more similarities than I'd like. Yes he plays differently enough but it's a bit more than the aesthetics there. There are common mechanics shared by the way Smash treats its weapon users that ends up shared between all of em, and a decent amount of his attacks end up having similar swinging arcs. Also a charge up neutral B and a counter on down + B. He's not Ken to Marth's Ryu or even Akuma to Marth's Ryu but... Dan or Sakura to Marth's Ryu maybe?

If his aesthetics were different it would help, though.
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Ike has two special moves that are the same as Marth's, no big deal.
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Marth and Ike's chargeable B moves have completely different properties. Marth's is a thin horizontal rapier-like poke that breaks shields. Ike's is a gigantic blue flame (three pillars in Smash Ultimate) with a huge vertical hitbox and spike properties that damages him if he uses it too long. If your logic for movies being similar is as simple as 'they charge' then you can make a lot of characters in the cast look like clones of each other.

Actually, let's compare all of their moves.

Similar:
Down B (counter)
Down Smash (forward then backward slices close to ground)
Up Air (circular slash above head)

Either Way:
Side Smash (circular forward slash, although Ike's is significantly slower and has a different windup animation)
Dash (circular forward slash, different speed and windup animation)
Forward Air (circular forward slash, different speed, reach, and windup animation)

Different:
Neutral B (already explained)
Side B (chargeable dash slash that can cover a huge distance vs. repeated quick strikes at melee range(
Up B (Aether vs. instant upward slash with sword extended horizontally)
Neutral Air (sword swung in huge circular arc around body vs. two quick horizontal slices)
Back Air (horizontal slash vs. circular slash)
Down Air (vertical spike below body vs. circular slash below body)
Jab (punch combo vs. quick circular slashes)
Up Tilt (holding the sword perfectly horizontal with a square hitbox vs. quick circular slash)
Down Tilt (horizontal swing close to the ground vs. very fast small poke)
Side Tilt (horizontal swing at chest level vs. circular swing)
Up Smash (huge slowish circular hitbox vs. quick vertical rapier-like poke)

Not comparable at all. They actually have a lot of distinct differences that the varying hitboxes of the sword allow - for example, Ike has the generic 'horizontal hitbox behind body' that like 70% of the cast has while Marth's is circular.
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Well no it's not just the two special moves being very similar, though changing those a bit would also help.

It's just a lot of little factors that add up when changing any of em would probably remove the sameyness feel they have (cause as said the playstyle isn't really similar) but saying it's just aesthetics is dumbing it down a bit.
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I'm not exactly talking about aesthetics here. Most of their moves have completely different hitboxes, speed, animation, power, ect.
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I mean KP you realize if you laid Sakura and Ryu's movesets side to side like that they'd probably be more different right

But they both have the shoto branding. Now it's not really a problem on its own but when you've got two literal clones on top of two virtual clones on top of that, all from Fire Emblem, Ike isn't helping as much as he maybe could.
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I really doubt they'd be more different, like you realize that the majority of their differences make them entirely different moves

Fire Emblem characters have the 'lol Marth' branding because they all use swords and have a counter except for Robin, but that doesn't make the branding any less dumb
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KamikazePotato posted...

I think the samey-ness of Fire Emblem characters to some people isn't in their playstyle so much as it is their aesthetics.

That's what I was replying to btw.

Like yeah aesthetics is part of it but there is a lot more to it than that. They do have a lot more functional gameplay similarities than you'd like to admit even if dissecting them you can swear up and down against it. It ends up making them feel more similar than they should even if they play very differently. This wouldn't be a problem but the brand already has that stigma from the aesthetics and literal clones.

Like I'm not saying Ike provides no unique value or that he's just a glorified echo, just that in a series with 4 reps that more or less are he comes closer to it than he should.
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Lopen posted...

They do have a lot more functional gameplay similarities than you'd like to admit even if dissecting them you can swear up and down against it.

No, they don't. Not even remotely. 2/3 of their moves are entirely different any property similarities they have in moves are vastly shared between many characters in Smash. There's very few types of unique moves overall (less than people want to admit in discussions like this). Like I said, about 70% of the cast has 'horizontal hitbox behind character' or 'circular upward attack' as their back air and up air. If you're calling the two similar based on stuff like that then you basically have to admit that most of the characters in the cast are similar outside of weirdos like Rosalina or Shulk.
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I mean it's not as simple as "this attack hits here with Ike and here with Marth." That's the argument you make if you just want to win on a technicality or don't understand what's being said

It's recurring themes like similar reaches cause they all have swords of similar lengths, no projectiles, disjoint hitbox due to their weapons, similar jumping arcs and stage return paths, etc etc.

Like keep in mind this isn't they play similarly this is them having a more similar feeling when you're using them than they really should.
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Their aesthetics are too similar and nobody can tell all of them apart by looking if you aren't a FE fan or haven't played a ton of Smash. No matter how similar or different they play, it's too much.

And Marth is my favorite to play.
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Who cares though? Why shouldn't fire emblem characters have similar aesthetics?

I mean they just do. That's the series.
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Anagram posted...

StartTheMachine posted...

Paper Mario
Toad/Captain Toad (and it would have to be the Captain considering Peach and Daisy still have regular Toad as a move)
Geno
Dixie Kong

I'd argue that those first two are probably above Waluigi. Paper Mario already has his own stage and Mario RPGs totally need representation. Geno would be a cool rep too, being a fan favorite and all, but Paper Mario is a long-running Nintendo series and Super Mario RPG is not.

Paper Mario maybe, but the others aren't as famous or popular.

And knowing Nintendo, a Paper Mario inclusion would have sticker and paint-based powers instead of being based on the good games.

I think this isn't giving the Smash team enough credit. The content they put into the game is not only faithful but also has historically aligned with fan expectations pretty well. I can't think of any examples of a character's design being badly out of line with what people wanted or expected. Simon is yet another positive example of this, where they got his classic Castlevania look down perfectly instead of going with the more modern, red-haired anime dude look. This is a team that, for instance, if they were going to add Dante into the game, you could be damn sure it would be Dante as he appeared in DMC1, not the new Dante nobody likes. To that end, I am pretty sure they would know that the truly beloved Paper Marios are the first two - they would definitely draw some inspiration from Sticker Star et al but I would put money on the most rep going to the first two Paper Marios. (Unless I am very badly wrong about how these games are perceived in Japan - but even then, they know what western audiences want, too.)

pjbasis posted...

Who cares though? Why shouldn't fire emblem characters have similar aesthetics?

I mean they just do. That's the series.

that's okay but then you have 8 of them which is what people complain about
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I mained Marth in Melee and am actually a Fire Emblem fan and my gut feeling with Ike is "I'm using Heavy Hitting Marth." That functionally makes them very different to play, but there are a lot of overlapping basic concepts there. Some of that is necessity because of the weapons they use, art style they have, and game they're from but minimizing similarities where you can should be a priority.

Like there is no reason Ike should have a charge B and a counter. That doesn't mean that's the entirety of what makes him feel similar, but every victory helps
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Out of 65 characters that's not that much.
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Paper Mario btw is probably the fighter I'd most be hyped for at this point as far as realistic entries go? He's almost like a completely different character than Mario to me. Mario is pretty low-to-middling in terms of how excited I am to play as them but Paper Mario would be totally different in terms of personal investment.

Also reading that suggestion list from Brawl makes me annoyed that Elite Beat Agents/their japanese counterpart aren't an AT. They wouldn't work as a playable fighter but as an AT hell yeah. I KNOW that Smash would include both the japanese and western counterparts of the character too because they're awesome like that.