Current Events > Will transgenders be allowed in sports?

(+) Yeah! (+)

HerpToTheDerp posted...

Austin_Era_II posted...

And you are?

Just mention stuff like genotype, DNA, and Y chromosomes and she should go away with her "fake science" schtick

Intersex conditions exist. See also: caster semenya
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gunplagirl posted...

gunplagirl posted...
People of African descent have denser bones. We don't use race science like that to designate black men and women as in a league above all other races, despite the fact that there ARE an extremely high proportion of black athletes in running events taking home medals. Speaking of which, how many trans athletes who have made it to the Olympics have won a gold medal, and how many trans athletes in total have there been?

You're also ignoring that there's trans people who transitioned and were on hormone blockers before puberty, preventing that "bone mass" argument from ever coming in to play for trans women.

Gonna need you to cite at least two reports that verify your "even after 3 years" claim for muscle mass, and at least one has to actually acknowledge the concept of muscle atrophy in it with a control group that didn't exercise while on androgen blockers. For what it's worth, I'll even ignore the country the study comes from, as the most commonly prescribed blocker in the US isn't as effective as the one in other Western nations.

If you're getting pissed over high school sports, consider the following: can you name ANY trans athletes who transitioned, participated, and have earned an athletics scholarship? Any at all?

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/695

"After one year of cross sexual treatment, the cross sectional thigh muscle area of the male to female transsexuals declined significantly, such that the mean muscle area approached that of the comparison group (pretreatment measurements from 17 female to male transsexuals). It should be noted, however, that even after one year of treatment, the male to female mean muscle area remained significantly greater than that observed in the female to male comparison group. Furthermore, measurements obtained at three years were not appreciably different from those at one year."

The advent of trans athletes dominated women in sports has been very recent, especially in HS track and field, but the results are obvious. They probably haven't even transitioned, they merely identify as women. And any transition after puberty is not going to remove the big advantages over biological women.

Even when you take everything out of the equation, you still have 2 big problems. One, men are naturally taller giving them advantages in a number of sports. Two, men have larger lungs. In fact, men's lungs can hold 2X as much air as women's at rest.

https://www.livescience.com/52250-lung.html

Only time will tell if these trans athletes will be given scholarships, but we know that the women who placed 3rd, 4th and 5th will, instead of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd will likely have their chances of getting a scholarship ruined.
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The first paper doesn't actually have a control, it's merely a compilation of data to try and point at a conclusion without actually, you know, doing testing of their own. More than that, what you're saying and what the paper says as a conclusion are incompatible given the scope of the paper and how wide spread you're suggesting it is

The second is not a research paper with any experiments either, no mention of trans people in it, at all. So using it is both totally dishonest AND unscientific because you're trying to extrapolate data from cis people and apply it to trans people.

Do go on about how I'm the unscientific one when you just grabbed papers that are either unrelated or didn't actually do testing of their own to prove the point you say they do (and it's different from what the paper actually concluded).

tl;dr don't waste my fucking time with your bullshit lies
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gunplagirl posted...

The first paper doesn't actually have a control, it's merely a compilation of data to try and point at a conclusion without actually, you know, doing testing of their own. More than that, what you're saying and what the paper says as a conclusion are incompatible given the scope of the paper and how wide spread you're suggesting it is

The second is not a research paper with any experiments either, no mention of trans people in it, at all. So using it is both totally dishonest AND unscientific because you're trying to extrapolate data from cis people and apply it to trans people.

Do go on about how I'm the unscientific one when you just grabbed papers that are either unrelated or didn't actually do testing of their own to prove the point you say they do (and it's different from what the paper actually concluded).

tl;dr don't waste my fucking time with your bullshit lies

Reality is just too much for you to handle. Just go away.
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gunplagirl posted...

HerpToTheDerp posted...

Austin_Era_II posted...

And you are?

Just mention stuff like genotype, DNA, and Y chromosomes and she should go away with her "fake science" schtick

Intersex conditions exist. See also: caster semenya

Yeah, and what do you know? That's not to be conflated with transgender people. You can't use intersex to handwave transgenders being born their respective genotypes.

HerpToTheDerp posted...

gunplagirl posted...

HerpToTheDerp posted...

Austin_Era_II posted...

And you are?

Just mention stuff like genotype, DNA, and Y chromosomes and she should go away with her "fake science" schtick

Intersex conditions exist. See also: caster semenya

Yeah, and what do you know? That's not to be conflated with transgender people. You can't use intersex to handwave transgenders being born their respective genotypes.

You're intentionally deflecting to avoid addressing the fact that there's more than just XY and XX chromosome pairings and that even among those, there's people born with varying genital configurations, making the concept of "biological sex" much more complicated than some "absolute truth with zero exceptions". As someone brought up chromosomes with regards to transgender people, it's completely irresponsible to not mention intersex conditions.

GreatEvilEmpire posted...

Reality is just too much for you to handle. Just go away.

You literally couldn't even find resources that verify the argument you're making and you're falsely extrapolating information that isn't actually there. The only one with no grasp on reality is yourself.
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gunplagirl posted...

You literally couldn't even find resources that verify the argument you're making and you're falsely extrapolating information that isn't actually there. The only one with no grasp on reality is yourself.

The facts can smack you in the face and you wouldn't notice it. You're a science denier. Nothing will fit your fantasy narrative. I can find the best research paper in the world and you will pretend it's not real. You're intentionally being obtuse, so shoo.
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GreatEvilEmpire posted...

gunplagirl posted...

You literally couldn't even find resources that verify the argument you're making and you're falsely extrapolating information that isn't actually there. The only one with no grasp on reality is yourself.

The facts can smack you in the face and you wouldn't notice it. You're a science denier. Nothing will fit your fantasy narrative. I can find the best research paper in the world and you will pretend it's not real. You're intentionally being obtuse, so shoo.

>Be you
>Says that men have larger lung capacity than women
>Tries applying that to trans women by using an article that doesn't mention trans people in it at all, especially not ones who have been on hormones for any degree of time

Extrapolation of that nature is unscientific. That's literally basic science. The only "science" you have is taking cis science and saying it's an absolute truth that cis men and trans women are exactly the same. Which of course is because you don't consider trans women to actually be women in any capacity. Which is also not at all scientifically accurate, as per the consensus of the global medical community. But hey, if you can't even get a basic detail like that right? What was it I said earlier, "don't waste my time with your bullshit" or something like that. You're more actually using science, you're using crap you heard on a Joe Rogan podcast, them smearing that figurative shit all over the place and feel proud for doing it.
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Probably.
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gunplagirl posted...

Extrapolation of that nature is unscientific. That's literally basic science. The only "science" you have is taking cis science and saying it's an absolute truth that cis men and trans women are exactly the same. Which of course is because you don't consider trans women to actually be women in any capacity. Which is also not at all scientifically accurate, as per the consensus of the global medical community. But hey, if you can't even get a basic detail like that right? What was it I said earlier, "don't waste my time with your bulls***" or something like that. You're more actually using science, you're using crap you heard on a Joe Rogan podcast, them smearing that figurative s*** all over the place and feel proud for doing it.

Let me explain it in a way you can understand. Men and transwomen (before transitioning) are physically the same. They are biological males, so don't pretend they're physically different... they're not.

Men:

- Taller than women.
- Larger skeletal frame than women.
- Bigger lungs than women.
- Higher bone density than women.
- Faster reaction time than women.
- More muscle mass than women.

Transwomen after transitioning

- Taller than women.
- Larger skeletal frame than women.
- Bigger lungs than women.
- Higher bone density than women.
- Faster reaction time than women.
- STILL more muscle mass than women after taking androgen blockers.

If you keep denying the facts, then you go wallow in your own delusion.
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I don't understand why this is even a discussion.

Trans have an advantage over women, it's a fact not an opinion. The simple answer is just

DirkDiggles posted...

They should have their own division.

Just create a new division, it is unfair to women to compete against a person with a biological advantage.

Men have a league, women have a league, now create a new one for transgenders.
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0xDEFECADE posted...

it's just sports no reason to get your knickers in a bunch

People who say this are the most obvious of nerds

Sports are important for many reasons

They make a lot of moneg for one. And two they produce some of the most intelligent and skilled people.

The bottom line is that this would harm womens sports greatly. If anyone should be pissed its them
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Some of y'all got a thin veil over your transphobia and it really shows.
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So the Olympics already have rules regarding transgender people, so I guess the answer to TC's question is "Yes, it's already happening".

I'm not against stipulations for transgender athletes before they're allowed to compete.
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ZMythos posted...

Some of y'all got a thin veil over your transphobia and it really shows.

It's like rice paper sitting on a liquid

Surface tension is so negligible you can sneeze and displace some of whatever's beneath it
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Just let them have their own division each. Easy. Next on the agenda?
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gunplagirl posted...

Austin_Era_II posted...

Just let them have their own division each. Easy. Next on the agenda?

We don't have any divisions for abject failures. *Looks around CE* It's the same. Old song. But with a different beat to go along.

The fuck, bruh.
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Someone doesn't understand the scientific proof as to why. Let me guess the Earth is really flat?
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Austin_Era_II posted...

Just let them have their own division each. Easy. Next on the agenda?

number of participants would probably be incredibly low and play each other all the time. if people were interested in watching trans athlete divisions, they'd probably get bored from just seeing the same competitors go against each other every time.
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

The fuck, bruh.

I never said you were among them.

Austin_Era_II posted...

Someone doesn't understand the scientific proof as to why. Let me guess the Earth is really flat?

You don't understand the scientific proof as to why the medical community considers trans women to be women. You don't understand why the highest committee for athletics allows trans athletes to compete as their actual gender. But hey, you clearly know better than medical committees and especially more than the WHO.

Actually, if we go with your example it would be you who isn't even advocating for a flat Earth but rather, you're insisting that we exist within a geocentric model of the universe.
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gunplagirl posted...

You don't understand the scientific proof as to why the medical community considers trans women to be women. You don't understand why the highest committee for athletics allows trans athletes to compete as their actual gender. But hey, you clearly know better than medical committees and especially more than the WHO.

The main reason: to reduce suicide rates among the transgender population. They are willing to throw science and logic out the window to accommodate feelings.

But no amount of mental gymnastics will change the facts. MtF trans athletes has massive advantages over biological women athletes. If you deny it, you're delusional.
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Fine I didn't know that about WHO and whatever. If that's the case since it's true then they can be equal and play the game. People shouldn't deny sciences.
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GreatEvilEmpire posted...

gunplagirl posted...

You don't understand the scientific proof as to why the medical community considers trans women to be women. You don't understand why the highest committee for athletics allows trans athletes to compete as their actual gender. But hey, you clearly know better than medical committees and especially more than the WHO.

The main reason: to reduce suicide rates among the transgender population. They are willing to throw science and logic out the window to accommodate feelings.

But no amount of mental gymnastics will change the facts. MtF trans athletes has massive advantages over biological women athletes. If you deny it, you're delusional.

Haha oh that's wonderful. That's the exact same argument used when being gay was declassified as a mental health disorder. "It's just politics and there's absolutely zero scientific evidence or increase in our understanding of what constitutes a mental health disorder that could possibly have merited the declassification."

You don't know a damn thing and calling me delusional when you're stuck not even using science that involves research on trans people is the height of idiocy. You're disregarding science to serve your own hateful feelings (yes, feelings) regarding things you clearly have zero intention to actually understand.

Basically? Antivaxxers have more of an intellectual leg to stand on than you. Now, since they don't have a leg to stand on, I guess I can't call you Peggy the Pirate. What's a good nickname for someone with no legs? I can't say "Lt. Dan" because he actually became a success. I guess there's always Bubba from that Major Payne flashback. So hey, congrats, Bubba. You ain't got no legs.
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if they have their own division, sure. I don't see why not.
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gunplagirl posted...

GreatEvilEmpire posted...

gunplagirl posted...

You don't understand the scientific proof as to why the medical community considers trans women to be women. You don't understand why the highest committee for athletics allows trans athletes to compete as their actual gender. But hey, you clearly know better than medical committees and especially more than the WHO.

The main reason: to reduce suicide rates among the transgender population. They are willing to throw science and logic out the window to accommodate feelings.

But no amount of mental gymnastics will change the facts. MtF trans athletes has massive advantages over biological women athletes. If you deny it, you're delusional.

Haha oh that's wonderful. That's the exact same argument used when being gay was declassified as a mental health disorder. "It's just politics and there's absolutely zero scientific evidence or increase in our understanding of what constitutes a mental health disorder that could possibly have merited the declassification."

You don't know a damn thing and calling me delusional when you're stuck not even using science that involves research on trans people is the height of idiocy. You're disregarding science to serve your own hateful feelings (yes, feelings) regarding things you clearly have zero intention to actually understand.

Basically? Antivaxxers have more of an intellectual leg to stand on than you. Now, since they don't have a leg to stand on, I guess I can't call you Peggy the Pirate. What's a good nickname for someone with no legs? I can't say "Lt. Dan" because he actually became a success. I guess there's always Bubba from that Major Payne flashback. So hey, congrats, Bubba. You ain't got no legs.

I think you're a bigot. You pretend to be righteous, but you're way more hateful than you let on. You clearly hate women enough to support the destruction of women's sports because you want things to be politically correct, when you know deep down inside it's wrong.

The facts are not hateful. You're hateful of the facts. And when you can't take it, you fall back on the typical crazy leftist defense mechanism... throw labels around. Why fight it? Just admit you're delusional.
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I don't block people except in 3 circumstances

1) Nazi or proud boy nonsense on an account that isn't just a throwaway 3 karma one
2) TERF logic
3) Loli content that goes well past just "X is best girl"

Congrats, you somehow made the cut. :)
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gunplagirl posted...

I don't block people except in 3 circumstances

1) Nazi or proud boy nonsense on an account that isn't just a throwaway 3 karma one
2) TERF logic
3) Loli content that goes well past just "X is best girl"

Congrats, you somehow made the cut. :)

So brave. Much run away. Facts bad.
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gunplagirl posted...

Unsugarized_Foo posted...
The fuck, bruh.

I never said you were among them.

Jk I did

Brah, the fuck
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gunplagirl posted...

I don't block people except in 3 circumstances

1) Nazi or proud boy nonsense on an account that isn't just a throwaway 3 karma one
2) TERF logic
3) Loli content that goes well past just "X is best girl"

Congrats, you somehow made the cut. :)

How emotional of you.

Cant face the truth so block the dissenters
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People here outright denying the truth that trans athletes aren't going to change a thing.

Let them compete in the division they identify with, plain and simple.

Stop pretending to care about women's sports over a made up issue that maybe affects a tenth of a percent of the population.
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Unfortunately it seems in areas like this facts and logic are thrown out the window in the name of inclusiveness and not hurting the fragile feelings of a small number of people.

SuperExcitebike posted...

It shouldn't be allowed

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ZMythos posted...

trans athletes aren't going to change a thing

What? Timofey Mozgov is one of the worst players currently playing in the NBA. Put him in WNBA (after a few hormone injections) and he wins a ring every year until he retires.

You all are crazy.

Both sides of this "debate" keep acting like there's a clear cut answer in the discussion of transgenders.

You all keep using words like "facts" just to pretend like you guys no what you're talking about.

Anyone who thinks there's a definitive answer by the medical community going either way on the issue is a moron. That's a fact.

Now if someone wants to talk about the gender continuum or something else that's in the focus of the medical community they can at least look like they know what their talking about.

Instead we have emotional gunplagirl on one side showing an obvious bias and we have people like GreatEvilEmpire pretending like he gives a shit either way while also pretending like he's read a single paper on the subject.
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Why dont we have 3 divisions for each sport? Mens, womens, and all categories.

Biological men and women go into their respective groups only. And anyone can join the all group.
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ZMythos posted...

It doesn't harm anyone to let trans people compete in sports so why exclude them for no reason?

It harms the actual athletes who are forced to compete against them.

An MTF track and field runner for example would absolutely destroy all competition. Same for power lifters or most sports really.
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Zeeak4444 posted...

You all are crazy.

Both sides of this "debate" keep acting like there's a clear cut answer in the discussion of transgenders.

You all keep using words like "facts" just to pretend like you guys no what you're talking about.

Anyone who thinks there's a definitive answer by the medical community going either way on the issue is a moron. That's a fact.

Now if someone wants to talk about the gender continuum or something else that's in the focus of the medical community they can at least look like they know what their talking about.

Instead we have emotional gunplagirl on one side showing an obvious bias and we have people like GreatEvilEmpire pretending like he gives a shit either way while also pretending like he's read a single paper on the subject.

Fuck off with that "gpg is emotional" bull shit, I've actually done my god-damned research unlike most of the transphobes in this topic.

Especially since you opened your post calling us all crazy then started talking about facts. Know what's a sign of several possible mental health issues? Not having an emotional response to fuckwads who are trying to have you erased from every facet of society. Especially when they're gaining ground because of the fascist POTUS.

Implying that an emotional response somehow degrades my position or argument would make you the one who is "crazy" as you're denying agency to others despite clearly having some conscious grasp of the situation.
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Ilishe posted...

ZMythos posted...

It doesn't harm anyone to let trans people compete in sports so why exclude them for no reason?

It harms the actual athletes who are forced to compete against them.

An MTF track and field runner for example would absolutely destroy all competition. Same for power lifters or most sports really.

I, too, can make up absolute statements that aren't actually verified by examples at the Olympic level.

I figure that if a group of CEmen were to participate in the Olympics, they'd set world records in every Olympic swimming event. Instead CE is aware of their all powerful mastery of the human body and therefore exclude themselves in the interest of keeping the competition fair. (I'm being sarcastic)
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SH_expert44 posted...

Why dont we have 3 divisions for each sport? Mens, womens, and all categories.

Biological men and women go into their respective groups only. And anyone can join the all group.

Probably because "biological sex" is a made up term that isn't actually accepted by geneticists.

Now, concepts like "phenotypical sex" or "genotypical sex" DO exist. Do try and actually educate yourself on the subject.

And the Olympics allow trans athletes to compete with regulations in place, yet none have actually won any events since their inclusion. So it isn't like a new league would actually give anyone a better chance at winning besides whatever men decide to participate there as opposed to the main one for men... Aka the one that actually garners the most attention in news broadcasts, etc.
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gunplagirl posted...

Zeeak4444 posted...

You all are crazy.

Both sides of this "debate" keep acting like there's a clear cut answer in the discussion of transgenders.

You all keep using words like "facts" just to pretend like you guys no what you're talking about.

Anyone who thinks there's a definitive answer by the medical community going either way on the issue is a moron. That's a fact.

Now if someone wants to talk about the gender continuum or something else that's in the focus of the medical community they can at least look like they know what their talking about.

Instead we have emotional gunplagirl on one side showing an obvious bias and we have people like GreatEvilEmpire pretending like he gives a shit either way while also pretending like he's read a single paper on the subject.

Fuck off with that "gpg is emotional" bull shit, I've actually done my god-damned research unlike most of the transphobes in this topic.

Especially since you opened your post calling us all crazy then started talking about facts. Know what's a sign of several possible mental health issues? Not having an emotional response to fuckwads who are trying to have you erased from every facet of society. Especially when they're gaining ground because of the fascist POTUS.

Implying that an emotional response somehow degrades my position or argument would make you the one who is "crazy" as you're denying agency to others despite clearly having some conscious grasp of the situation.

But yet you disregarded about 70% of the post, including the actual reasons why I called you guys crazy (also taking huge issue with a common and casual phrase).

So uhhh, you wanna tell me why my stated stance of the medical community is wrong or do you wanna go into another useless rant?

I'm not trying to be a dick here, it just is what it is.
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I don't have to actually address each and every single point you bring up, especially when pointing out that making sweeping generalizations of all people in a group sufficed to get my message across regarding your own.

And ignoring the majority opinions of the medical community (it's several iterations more than just a majority+margin of error) or else, stating that it can go either is to be wrong. Want to guess how many medical organizations have stated support for the IAAF with regards to them trying to have Caster Semenya banned from competing? Besides those think-tank ones like the American College of Pediatricians, zero. And if you know anything about the American College of Pediatricians, you'd also know that they should be disregarded. Especially with how many members have never been qualified to practice medicine.
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You really like to go off on tangents.

Should have just said you don't want to address my post.
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I literally answered and qualified my answer. How you're unable to notice that, well. Maybe read it again and see if that helps?
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I love these topics. Watching temper tantrums get thrown because they think the world should stop for an insignificant portion of the population tickles me something fierce. As though normal people actually care. Hilarious.
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Yeah, my statement was that there is no definitive stance in the medicinal community.

Not on diagnosis.
Not on treatment.
Not on short/long term effects.
Not on pretty much anything.

You have done nothing to agreed that statement. I don't even know what the hell you're talking about with the sweeping generalization about groups of people cause I haven't said anything at all about any group of people.

You're so set off by a couple of users on gamefaqs that you're just in full on meltdown mode. You need to realize that while progress is being made its still a long fucking road to go.

So, yeah, be passionate. Spread awareness. Do you. But do it truthfully. That's the only way you're gonna sway enough of the other side to ensure progress continues to be made.
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Zeeak4444 posted...

Yeah, my statement was that there is no definitive stance in the medicinal community.

Not on diagnosis.
Not on treatment.
Not on short/long term effects.
Not on pretty much anything.

Yeah, there's an agreed upon method of diagnosing (if X number of symptoms persist for more than Y period of time)
Yeah, there's been an agreement on what the proper treatment is (allowing them to transition socially, taking hormones, getting other treatments they might need as it relates to addressing their dysphoria such as hair removal, surgery, etc.)
There's decades of research on short term and long term effects, especially since the estrogen supplements most of us are on is the exact same as what post menopausal cis women take, and there was a paper recently in Europe tracking a few hundred subjects who had started puberty blockers and hrt in their teens as opposed to starting hrt after first puberty has finished

You're so full of crap it's pathetic, and insulting to literally everyone who has made the unfortunate mistake of reading any of your posts.
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