Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 289: You Down to Invoke P? Yeah You Know Me!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Wanglicious posted...

no, you're just wrong, have no idea what you're talking about, have no idea what the data says, and are basing your opinion on jack shit. you're extremely limited in your knowledge on this subject and are stubbornly refusing that you're wrong because you don't feel like you are, even though every analysis and every stat says you are.

A majority of Hispanics identify on the census as white. TRUE.
Some Hispanics identify as white. TRUE.
Hispanics identify as white. FALSE.

Basically you are wrong.

hispanics do not consider themselves "black or brown,"

I'm going to reiterate, this is a single statement made by you Wang, and it is false.

Corrik7 posted...

I honestly don't even know if Brown is a real thing.

In the sense that race itself isnt a real thing, sure
---

MoogleKupo141 posted...

Brown isnt like an official census thing, its more of a social/colloquial thing. I think it can cover Latinos and also Arabs and Indians (from India, not native Americans) and stuff.

Like even if someone from the Middle East would technically check the white box on a census form, theyre not white in the way a French guy would be.

I'd venture to say parts of Italy and possibly Spain are "browner" than some of the other areas you guys are throwing out.

---

As a half-Cuban who looks 100% whitebread, I have no idea what the hell to put on forms

---

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

This is literally according to the census, which qualifies Hispanic as a type of white.

completely false. i literally just posted the single race categories above. hispanics pick white as the majority.
multi race categories also exist, though far less people pick them.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Colloquially, I dont know any Latinos who would say theyre white. Like if I were to go into my Taqueria and say were both white, theyre gonna say lol stfu gringo

depends how you bring it up.
if you do something that says you're clearly of a different ethnic group, sure, you'd be rejected like that. hispanics do hold being hispanic as part of their identity at a similar level as race, about 2/3 of 'em. once you split that though you end up getting white - that's the census in a nutshell.

in depth studies have gone into this and do consistently find "white" as the plurality or significantly in 2nd to some much wider pool, like literally "hispanic or latino." even those who think they're multi-racial it's almost 50/50 in favor of "yeah but i'm white," basically, with that value going higher the more races get mixed. ultimately, that means data will further skew in the direction of "white," as it already did in previous decades. it's steadily getting assimilated.

basically you can dig really deep into the numbers but will consistently end up with figures that say yeah, majority white's correct. black or brown ain't it. there may well be some racist overtones to not considering themselves black too.

---

So Brown is just made up. If you are putting Indians, Middle Easterns, Hispanics, and etc all under the same banner then it is totally made up cuz they basically have shit in common.

---

Corrik7 posted...

So Brown is just made up. If you are putting Indians, Middle Easterns, Hispanics, and etc all under the same banner then it is totally made up cuz they basically have shit in common.

What they have in common when it comes to the term Brown is that they are USA minorities
---

Wanglicious posted...

removed completely, unfortunately.
unless we're going by UK "asian." those are brown because that's Indian or Pakistani, usually.

Okay, what about Southeast Asia?

---

Corrik7 posted...

So Brown is just made up. If you are putting Indians, Middle Easterns, Hispanics, and etc all under the same banner then it is totally made up cuz they basically have shit in common.

Nothing in common? You sure about that?

---

Corrik7 posted...

So Brown is just made up. If you are putting Indians, Middle Easterns, Hispanics, and etc all under the same banner then it is totally made up cuz they basically have shit in common.

I mean the whole system is pretty much made up.

Corrik7 posted...

I'd venture to say parts of Italy and possibly Spain are "browner" than some of the other areas you guys are throwing out.

It might interest you to know that at points in American history, Italians were not considered white.
---

Jakyl25 posted...

What they have in common when it comes to the term Brown is that they are USA minorities

So are Asians.

---

Corrik7 posted...

I'd venture to say parts of Italy and possibly Spain are "browner" than some of the other areas you guys are throwing out.

oh totally, I have an Italian friend with very dark skin

but white isnt really as straightforward as skin color. My friend Tony doesnt have people suspicious of him at airports like a comparatively lighter skinned Arab man might.
---

Corrik7 posted...

So are Asians.

Agreed, which is why people of color would have been better IMO
---

Leafeon13N posted...

I'm going to reiterate, this is a single statement made by you Wang, and it is false.

and i'm going to reiterate, that you sure like to leave out the second half of that single statement:
"hispanics do not consider themselves "black or brown," we're majority white."

because that's not a very convenient argument for you as it's true.
the discussion is all flowing from a statement by AOC. in it, she mentions black or brown. this wouldn't include hispanics by their own assessment but i'm willing to accept that she would consider them, despite that being a radical viewpoint that's against all of the data (what else is new).

if your argument is that no hispanic has ever called themselves that then you're just using a strawman argument to refuse data.

---

People should just stop using Brown. It is dumb and doesn't make sense. I mean logically I would think it means partially Black.

But, it is just outright dumb.

---

Wanglicious posted...

and i'm going to reiterate, that you sure like to leave out the second half of that single statement:

I don't think you quite grasp that those are two separate statements.

Corrik7 posted...

People should just stop using Brown. It is dumb and doesn't make sense. I mean logically I would think it means partially Black.

But, it is just outright dumb.

its just a catch-all for the space between white and black, its not really that complicated
---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Okay, what about Southeast Asia?

that depends on whether it's being skewed towards Pacific Islanders or just... well, people in Southeast Asia. i'm thinking Filipinos specifically as one that straddles both.

i don't know the data nearly as well on that one. generally speaking that one gets put under "asian" and we ARE steadily putting "indian" there, it's just a lot slower. bear in mind, i also don't think most Americans have an idea of what "pacific islander" is beyond maybe Samoan.


---

Leafeon13N posted...

I don't think you quite grasp that those are two separate statements.

and i know you don't want to accept that the two are specifically and purposefully tied together.


---

Corrik7 posted...

People should just stop using Brown. It is dumb and doesn't make sense. I mean logically I would think it means partially Black.

But, it is just outright dumb.

If you want some free Reddit karma, go post that to r/unpopularopinion
---

Wanglicious posted...

and i know you don't want to accept that the two are specifically and purposefully tied together

The first statement is still false. That's how logic works.

and i'm going to reiterate, that you sure like to leave out the second half of that single statement:
"hispanics do not consider themselves "black or brown," we're majority white."

I know you posted that census data with white winning out, but theres no brown identification option there.

Is there any data with regard to the use of the word brown specifically?
---

again, if you're somehow claiming that it's an absolute statement and that no hispanic has ever claimed to being black or brown, sure, enjoy your strawman victory.

---

heres an article I just found related to this

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/06/16/321819185/on-the-census-who-checks-hispanic-who-checks-white-and-why

They found that for Latinos, those who checked white did not identify with the term. So about half of Latinos who checked white on the Census, when they called them back, a very nominal amount of them thought of themselves as white. [The interviewers] asked them, "So why did you check this?" And they said, "Because there was nothing else. I don't fit anywhere else. There's nothing else to put. "
---

MoogleKupo141 posted...

They found that for Latinos, those who checked white did not identify with the term. So about half of Latinos who checked white on the Census, when they called them back, a very nominal amount of them thought of themselves as white. [The interviewers] asked them, "So why did you check this?" And they said, "Because there was nothing else. I don't fit anywhere else. There's nothing else to put. "

This properly describes my entire family btw.

Wang I dont think anyones disputing that some hispanics self-identify as white. Theyre disputing your claim that the majority of hispanics do.

---

MoogleKupo141 posted...

I know you posted that census data with white winning out, but theres no brown identification option there.

Is there any data with regard to the use of the word brown specifically?

no, though i'd wager "brown" would really just be too broad and disliked to win anything. would feel like white people trying to put people in a box again (hi Latinx!).

breakdowns on hispanic demographics will usually focus on 1) hispanic/latino as a racial identifier (which is also what the census does technically but they go much more in depth), 2) a stronger focus and breakdown on what being "mixed race" is, and 3) include more specific mixed categories that may be brown, like mestizo, mulatto (a significant plurality tend to pick "white" when narrowed down iirc).


---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Wang I dont think anyones disputing that some hispanics self-identify as white. Theyre disputing your claim that the majority of hispanics do.

based on data, they do.
and that ain't even red's argument, he's busy with a haystack.

---

Honestly if you wanted my entire opinion on the census it is intentionally vague and clearly written by a bunch of white dudes.

...okay, that we'll agree on.

---

Unless I'm mistaken, the argument is that just because hispanics may choose "white" on the census, that doesn't necessarily mean they actually identify as white, such as in Moogle's example where for many it was a "There was nothing else" pick. The argument is basically that the data can't be used to make that statement.

---

I don't know what exactly it is on the census, but a ton of forms also have the option as "White or hispanic". It's kind of become the default choice available.
---

mm... i got major questions on that study and where it ends. personally i like this one as it goes really in depth:
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/06/11/chapter-7-the-many-dimensions-of-hispanic-racial-identity/

also it's pew, fairly reliable with specific data you can break down and examine.

that one goes 67% consider hispanic to be at the level of race as a factor.
once hispanic and white are options for race, the number identifying as white hispanic goes UP to 79%. this is at direct odds with the one in the NPR article and makes a lot more sense: given the choice of multiple options, it makes sense the number would be about the same or go up since it's including a wider pool. the NPR one... somehow dropped 50-60% from data and various amounts of research on the subject, which should be a red flag that something's very fishy with that data. i'd sooner guess somebody planted the seeds for the answers they wanted.

back to the collection of studies: it gets really in depth with specifics, at which point you start seeing "white" leave its majority position to plurality with a couple instances of becoming a strong second. some of the details i referenced earlier can be found in this collection of studies.

...however.
do note one particular trend: the rate of perception. it's weird in that the people with 2+ census races will find that they pass as "white" more so than "hispanic." the explanation for that is straightforward enough: a significant chunk of "hispanic" flipped to "mixed" and not enough "white" dropped. thusly, the order became white > hispanic > mixed (30% > 24% > 17%). those who are just 1 census race were majority "hispanic" but "white" was only a little behind it, comparatively speaking (48% to 38%).

i bring that up because of this later study:
https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2017/12/20/hispanic-identity-fades-across-generations-as-immigrant-connections-fall-away/

which shows that among 4th generation hispanics, only 50/50 self identify with it. as in, completely, whether that's ethnicity or race (a more in depth study would be appreciated). perception plays a major role in this, as does culture though i don't think anyone's gonna question that by 4th generation a significant amount is lost. this is important because going forward, this means that 67% which considers hispanic to be at the level of a race is going to plummet and you're gonna be left with the identifier that was there in the first place: white.

---

alright, back on the specific topic and not the hispanic tangent...

Jakyl25 posted...

Agreed, which is why people of color would have been better IMO

this just runs into the problem that there's a if we're talking about poor people, whites are the majority. the percentage may be lower but there's just that many more white people than anyone else.

if this is something that's going to affect poor people disproportionately - which is expected - it means this isn't a racial issue but a class one. tying brown and black, trying to tie in reparations, playing identity politics like this ruins that completely.

this is also why i assume she didn't mention asian by the way. even though one of the worst hit neighborhoods in NYC is over 40% asian she didn't mention them. i don't think that's a bug, it's a feature, the same way they're fine to exclude and discriminate against.

---

Wanglicious posted...

if this is something that's going to affect poor people disproportionately - which is expected - it means this isn't a racial issue but a class one. tying brown and black, trying to tie in reparations, playing identity politics like this ruins that completely.

The point though with regard to reparations is that minorities are disproportionately part of the lower class because of Americas historical and ongoing systemic racism.

You want to help all the poor, thats great, but it ignores the perpetual, intentional harm inflicted on the non-white population to specifically disadvantage them.
---

by that analysis, asian is purposefully excluded.
they're disproportionally part of the upper class. they're also in one of the worst hit communities.


---

Trump is firing the inspector general of the intelligence community. You know, the guy who opposed the decision to withhold the whistleblower complaint from Congress. DOJ IG issued a statement in support of the fired IG, specifically defending his conduct on the whistleblower report.

---

Far right circles have been pushing the idea that impeachment was the primary reason Trump could not focus on the coronavirus despite the fact that impeachment was over with back in January, leaving over a month of time between that and Trump doing anything about the virus.

So this is a move to push the narrative in that direction.

---

Hes using the virus as cover to pull more attacks on the rule of law

Such an irredeemable piece of shit

---

https://twitter.com/qasimrashid/status/1246252661273493505?s=21

Best country on Earth, baby! If you like your healthcare you can keep it! (Until you get laid off when youll really need it!) USA! USA!

---

red13n posted...

Far right circles have been pushing the idea that impeachment was the primary reason Trump could not focus on the coronavirus despite the fact that impeachment was over with back in January, leaving over a month of time between that and Trump doing anything about the virus.

So this is a move to push the narrative in that direction.

even though trump himself has already said that he wasn't distracted by the impeachment

---

Just keeps getting worse

https://twitter.com/asharangappa_/status/1246436535882452992?s=21

---

https://youtu.be/M5FGuBatbTg

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Just keeps getting worse

https://twitter.com/asharangappa_/status/1246436535882452992?s=21

https://twitter.com/AshaRangappa_/status/1246445945258156032?s=20

So, now I just want to know what his role actually is before sharing further. Either way, spittake concerning

---

I want to hear this conference call

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1246441796923797510?s=21
---

HarshRapDebater posted...

even though trump himself has already said that he wasn't distracted by the impeachment

Trump has said a lot of things at the end of the day they've all realized what he has said in the past doesn't matter.

---

Lol Trump said Biden didn't write the tweet directed at him during the conference because if Biden is watching he wouldn't be able to understand what he is watching anyways. Direct shot at Biden's capacity.

---

Jakyl25 posted...

I want to hear this conference call

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1246441796923797510?s=21

it is extremely funny to me that WWE is involved
---