Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 274: Rebuttigieg

(+) Yeah! (+)

Wanglicious posted...

would you vote for other races

Phrasing
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Racecar.

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"It's going to disappear. One day it's like a miracle, it will disappear," Trump said at the White House Thursday as the virus marched across Asia and Europe after US officials said the US should brace for severe disruption to everyday life.
The President also warned that things could "get worse before it gets better," but he added it could "maybe go away. We'll see what happens. Nobody really knows."

Well I feel better
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I felt immensely better when he said we're probably not gonna die.

The instant purchasing of a lot of medicine which followed along with checking food supplies had nothing to do with it, nope.


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FFDragon posted...

I'll vote anyone (not Pete) so long as their nomination is above bar.

If there's fuckery, I'm just not going to vote, results be damned.

I feel like I'm very much not alone in this sentiment. I very much will cut off the nose to spite the face.

s/Pete/Bloomberg

Jakyl25 posted...

Well I feel better

This is my favorite disaster movie trope, when President just goes eh itll be fine, it will just disappear like a miracle.

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Can I ask what the "I just won't vote" crew sees as a solution in the event the Dem party collapses like that? Not that I think voting is the only solution, or saying I'm any more politically active, but I'm legit curious as to what the next step for progressivism should be in the event that Bernie is screwed over and Dems lose.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Can I ask what the "I just won't vote" crew sees as a solution in the event the Dem party collapses like that? Not that I think voting is the only solution, or saying I'm any more politically active, but I'm legit curious as to what the next step for progressivism should be in the event that Bernie is screwed over and Dems lose.

I'm partly sarcastic/playing it up when I'm comitting to not voting here. But in the event of something like that, I legit don't think I see a peaceful way forward for politics that don't explicitly favor the rich at the expense of the poor (and what's left of the middle claas) in the US.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Can I ask what the "I just won't vote" crew sees as a solution in the event the Dem party collapses like that? Not that I think voting is the only solution, or saying I'm any more politically active, but I'm legit curious as to what the next step for progressivism should be in the event that Bernie is screwed over and Dems lose.

I guess theoretically the idea would be that the DNC will see they need to make compromises to win seats of power?

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Like, it's self-evident that Republican Policy amounts to "fuck the poor" and corporate socialism, so they're right out. And if the Democrats hard commit to going the same way, then with the voting system in this country being as broken as it is, what's left besides taking my ball and moving to Canada, the UK, or wherever else?

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Can I ask what the "I just won't vote" crew sees as a solution in the event the Dem party collapses like that? Not that I think voting is the only solution, or saying I'm any more politically active, but I'm legit curious as to what the next step for progressivism should be in the event that Bernie is screwed over and Dems lose.

Let me ask it the opposite way: If the Dems basically show that theyre willing to do anything to avoid ideas that you believe in, why should you reward that?

At a certain point, the only way for them to understand theyre not serving your interest is to not give them your vote.

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It'd be a tough situation, because while I wouldn't want to reward that, I wouldn't want to fuck everybody else over by giving them more Trump, either.

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who do you think *actually* suffers in that scenario

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neonreaper posted...

who do you think *actually* suffers in that scenario

The people who are already the worst off among us?

i'll pitch my crazy idea still:
if you feel you're that screwed just go out, vote D down the line for Congress, and ignore president.

at the very least you can guarantee the executive having some limits.

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Wanglicious posted...

i'll pitch my crazy idea still:
if you feel you're that screwed just go out, vote D down the line for Congress, and ignore president.

at the very least you can guarantee the executive having some limits.

This is what I'm leaning towards if Bloomberg is the nominee, regardless of how we get there. The problem is if the nominee is chosen by blatant and explicit fuckery by the DNC.

FFDragon posted...

If there logic is committing fuckery to preserve down ticket, I guess I wouldn't be voting at all because otherwise they'd still be getting what they want.

Basically, Wang, read this previous post that was in response to you. It is a mindset I find myself inclined to agree with.

Wanglicious posted...

i'll pitch my crazy idea still:
if you feel you're that screwed just go out, vote D down the line for Congress, and ignore president.

at the very least you can guarantee the executive having some limits.

Yeah I mean this is solid, and people should pay more attention to local downballot races in general. If there's a good senate or house candidate I don't see why they should necessarily pay the price for party fuckery.

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That's fair. I've no objections to a mentality of it has to die to get better. The only follow-up I can think of is one that demands work: voting for reps who opposed the DNC majority rule and explicitly voiced a change to a plurality, voting out dems who do otherwise.

Basically, primary 'em. This is technically in line with the more populist side of the left like AOC.

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it sucks you guys need such insanely long presidential campaigns that you can hardly put any attention on the much more important regional races, if they get any attention at all

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CelesMyUserName posted...

it sucks you guys need such insanely long presidential campaigns that you can hardly put any attention on the much more important regional races, if they get any attention at all

hey feel lucky when you even have those races

too many local races are just straight-up uncontested

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HashtagSEP posted...

It'd be a tough situation, because while I wouldn't want to reward that, I wouldn't want to fuck everybody else over by giving them more Trump, either.

Exactly. With 4 more years of Trump rights for Women, LGBT, workers, blacks, hispanics, and so much more will be seriously eroded. Yes, the DNC is a mess. But let's not cut off our noses to spite our face.

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Btw anyone who would block Bernie wont be effected by trump. They just pretend to care. So not voting just helps their narratives. I am moving out of country if it happens though so I wont care

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Also yeah SEP did exactly nail the problematic side to just not voting here.

Whole situation just fucking sucks and all I can do is hope it doesn't come to pass.

CelesMyUserName posted...

it sucks you guys need such insanely long presidential campaigns that you can hardly put any attention on the much more important regional races, if they get any attention at all

Maybe we should adopt a parliamentary system for executive selection like Canada and the UK!

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Yeah I mean this is solid, and people should pay more attention to local downballot races in general. If there's a good senate or house candidate I don't see why they should necessarily pay the price for party fuckery.

Best bet is whatever happens people continue to not pay attention to those downballot races. Young people are entitled as fuck and want what they think is an easy answer in Bernie but are unlikely to come out beyond that. At least not in the areas you'd need them to do so.

You can also vote straight ticket R to show the DNC. Maximum pressure!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Let me ask it the opposite way: If the Dems basically show that theyre willing to do anything to avoid ideas that you believe in, why should you reward that?

Because the alternative is worse. Are you honestly saying you're willing to condemn the U.S. and the world to 4 more years of Trump's incompetent bungling and needless cruelty?

I can absolutely guarantee that if your political views are anywhere left of center on any topic you care to name, any Democratic candidate will move the country closer to what you want than Trump will.

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Also we have basically 3 Bloomberg ads running every hour here.

One is Coronavirus fear mongering. One is all black people. One is all women.

Not_an_Owl posted...

Because the alternative is worse. Are you honestly saying you're willing to condemn the U.S. and the world to 4 more years of Trump's incompetent bungling and needless cruelty?

I can absolutely guarantee that if your political views are anywhere left of center on any topic you care to name, any Democratic candidate will move the country closer to what you want than Trump will.

I'm going to say Bloomberg moves us specifically in the Trump direction by moving both parties in the direction of only electing dumb stupid rich white dudes.

Polls are telling me your state isn't going to fail me, red

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If my guy gets screwed and the DNC settles on Bloomberg, fuck the DNC they dont get my vote.

I cant bring myself to vote for the guy, but Ill settle for the incompetent bungling of Trump over a guy who was a Republican 2 years ago that in reality is just as against my beliefs as Trump is.

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Because the alternative is worse. Are you honestly saying you're willing to condemn the U.S. and the world to 4 more years of Trump's incompetent bungling and needless cruelty?

Also for the record, this is exactly why our system is broken. Youre guilting me to vote for bad because the alternative is very bad.

Maybe if the bad candidates keep losing theyll get their shit together and nominate a good one.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Polls are telling me your state isn't going to fail me, red

New Hampshire? Or California?

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Trump really isn't bad unless you're an illegal immigrant or part of the government bureaucracy. There's little question life has improved for virtually everyone else since Trump took office.

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Democrats have this thing about hyping up whoever is the leader of the Republican Party of the day as a monster, and then deciding after he's out of power that he wasn't so bad after all because the next guy is worse. This kind of treatment is not going to endear Republicans to you - you'll be viciously attacked no matter what you do, so at some point it becomes more advantageous to not even try to gain support from Democrats.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Also for the record, this is exactly why our system is broken. Youre guilting me to vote for bad because the alternative is very bad.

Maybe if the bad candidates keep losing theyll get their shit together and nominate a good one.

I mean, LotM is regularly accused of not caring about poor people and the like, but how is refusing to vote any better? You're still giving a giant middle finger to all the people Trump is fucking.

EDIT: I can get not wanting to vote for president if things get fucked with, but refusing to vote at all is silly.

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i can't keep track of the "dnc"'s motives here

they apparently would rather lose than elect sanders so if that comes to pass they'll learn their lesson and... nominate someone like sanders? but aren't you giving them what they want? i mean if the operating premise is that they prefer trump to sanders/progressives then how is this changing their minds?

why would they reverse course on this supposed bedrock principle instead of going "welp i guess what wins elections is trump-style bullshit better go in that direction instead. i mean if the underlying premise being argued that they prefer that to actual progressive policy wouldn't they take that course as a win-win from their perspective?"

someone needs to work on the character writing here i'm losing the plot

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Let me ask it the opposite way: If the Dems basically show that theyre willing to do anything to avoid ideas that you believe in, why should you reward that?

At a certain point, the only way for them to understand theyre not serving your interest is to not give them your vote.

Also I somehow missed this so I guess I'll respond directly now.

I guess the way I see it is that it isnt really about rewarding Democrats as it is about stopping Republicans. Republicans are hostile to all other factions unless they can assimilate them into their own, and oppose democracy in favor of consolidating their own power. Democrats want total control over their own party, but are willing to negotiate with anyone, including Republicans. Both parties should be destroyed, but how is there ANY room to build a progressive political movement if you first cede power to Republicans, whose primary interest is locking out other factions?

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HashtagSEP posted...

I mean, LotM is regularly accused of not caring about poor people and the like, but how is refusing to vote any better? You're still giving a giant middle finger to all the people Trump is fucking.

He is voting. In the primary. He may also vote in the general for someone like Jill Stein.

If the two main parties are the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party and the Elephants Trampling On People Party, and Tony votes third party, both of the two big parties are going to accuse him of being heartless because his vote will be construed as a vote for leopards eating people's faces, or for elephants trampling on people, in that he failed to vote against one of them. But voting for neither of them is still the right thing to do.

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They never have self reflection. They just voter blame

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red sox 777 posted...

Trump really isn't bad unless you're an illegal immigrant or part of the government bureaucracy. There's little question life has improved for virtually everyone else since Trump took office.

This is generally always the case for any country, to be fair. And I don't mean that as a perjorative against your comment. It brings up something to think about, and cuts both ways. Unless your country is in the middle of a civil war/massive civil unrest or a complete economic collapse, the average quality of life is almost always going to improve.

See the final column in the linked chart. The HDI always goes up over time, short of extreme circumstances:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

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You do realize if Trump wins, he's likely to replace Ginsburg and Breyer, right?

At which point progressive agenda is functionally dead for 20-25 years.

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TheRock1525 posted...

You do realize if Trump wins, he's likely to replace Ginsburg and Breyer, right?

At which point progressive agenda is functionally dead for 20-25 years.

If progressive agenda is fixated on trying to get an unelected Supreme Court to change the laws rather than having elected representatives change the law through the legislative process, they are screwed anyway.


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TheRock1525 posted...

You do realize if Trump wins, he's likely to replace Ginsburg and Breyer, right?

At which point progressive agenda is functionally dead for 20-25 years.

Yes, and they will use that judicial authority to uphold gerrymandering, voter suppression, and revisit intimidation tactics like the census question to attack democracy. All while also ceding more power to the executive, and using their lopsided Senate majority (whose bias will only increase in Rs favor in years to come) to block any legislation that could challenge them.

This isn't fearmongering, this is all stuff that is already happening and easily verified.

So you have to ask: what is the electoral solution, and if there isn't one, where is the revolution?

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Yes, and they will use that judicial authority to uphold gerrymandering, voter suppression, and revisit intimidation tactics like the census question to attack democracy. All while also ceding more power to the executive, and using their lopsided Senate majority (whose bias will only increase in Rs favor in years to come) to block any legislation that could challenge them.

This isn't fearmongering, this is all stuff that is already happening and easily verified.

So you have to ask: what is the electoral solution, and if there isn't one, where is the revolution?

The electoral solution is to actually try to win votes from the electorate, and not just from people who don't vote!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Also for the record, this is exactly why our system is broken. Youre guilting me to vote for bad because the alternative is very bad.

Maybe if the bad candidates keep losing theyll get their shit together and nominate a good one.

Or there just won't be a democracy anymore. You know, one or the other.

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Or there just won't be a democracy anymore. You know, one or the other.

Would that be so bad?

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Would that be so bad?

Yes.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Would that be so bad?

If it's being run the GOP? Yes. Yes it would.

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